Wednesday, September 28, 2011

First Turn Purifier Charging Shenanigans

James asked this question in

James not Jim said...
Hi, I'm still pretty new to 40k and I'm curious about this part "purifier first turn charge shenanigans should I so choose / should I be going first and someone give me the chance (deploy rhino sideways, pivot and move 12" in scout move, disembark 2" from door to back of base, move 6 charge 6 ... 26" range from deployment edge" I thought the unit of scouts didnt pass that on to the vehicle they were in, and also I thought you couldent assault on the same turn you disembarked from a rhino?

Most of this question is answered by the rules, but I did some vassal graphics just to show how to do it for anyone who hasn't figured it out.  The notional is a squad of 10 purifiers in a dozer rhino in conjunction with a GM.  Purifiers are fearless, and will tend to be toting a hammer 2 psycannons and 2 incinerators ... this makes them a better unit for the task of first turn disruption if you're going to try it than most ... but, for the record, I think the times you should first turn charge like this are EXTREMELY RARE.  Your opponent almost always has to do something stupid with the way he deploys, b/c you can only reach about 4" into his deployment zone (in pitched battle) ... this is nice and all, but not perfect, and you're still shoving a unit (and possibly 2 independent characters) forward into your opponent's army ... so you'd better get a lot back for doing it, as they're presumably going to take a beating.

BUT, anyway ... a unit with the Scout USR confers it upon its transport, per the Scouts rule in the BRB USR section.  They also confer the ability to Outflank upon it, per the Outflanking rules in the BRB playing a battle section.  So that covers that.

While the Rhino counts as moving in the pre-game, and on turn 1 if going 2nd (For hitting it in CC, etc), you count as stationary once your turn starts, so you can disembark from the rhino, move 6", and assault.  You can always assault the turn you disembark if you disembark BEFORE the vehicle moves (or pivots).  So, since you do your move with the Scout, you are good to go for assaulting.

Here's a pictorial of how to go about it "best" ... I find that opponent's most often will deploy forward foolishly with a deathstar that's not transported, something they want to get across the table and threaten you with, i.e. Nob Bikers (and don't worry, I'm not saying Nob Bikers are a pain in the ass to deal with at all here).  Click to expand the size of each photo and see the writing in it:

The one funny thing worth mentioning is that the armies you most want to do this to are the ones who are most harmed by the actions required to avoid it.  A foot horde ork army does not want to jam all of its guys 5" back into its deployment zone ... nob bikers and thunderwolves don't want to start further back (though the TWC care less due to the nature of the army that usually surrounds them, and their role in it, plus their larger charge range).  Yadda yadda.
EDIT - As an addendum, it's also possible to advance only one model as far as possible, a 2nd model max back from him, and the rest of the swords 2" back off that one ... when you advance into combat, you'll have a ton of models that are much closer to midfield, and only 2 who are closer into your opponent's deployment zone, yet all your special weapons will still be engaged due to your opponent's combat reaction moves.  Coupled with a half decent consolidation back out of combat, you'll in many situations be able to basically sneak into your opponent's deployment zone, gank one of his [key] units, and consolidate right back out ... taking your 2 casualties in combat (and even hoping for them) on the only models that would have wound up close enough for him to counter-punch back at you with.

2nd Edit - You probably can't do the Coteaz force weapon activation and have it affect the unit; up for debate, but I think that part is a little off.

Welp, enjoy.


  1. I do like using scouting purifiers... lets you push into enemy lines mighty fast! I usually take Mordrak as my GKGM and some of his ghost buddies as well. This lets you put some additional pressure in your enemies rear lines and can support the turn 1 purifier push. Granted you lose the grenades - and frankly Mike I hadn't considered trying to slingshot an IC into the combat. That is just nasty if you can pull it off!

  2. Doesn't the scout move clearly state you need to be outside of 12" from your opponent? Unless you have fleet, there is no way to get a first turn charge from terminators.

    Also, the pivot to get extra movement is pretty lame. Never advocated that. I'm glad many local tournament FAQ's prohibit moving any part of the vehicle longer then it's max movement.

  3. It's a first turn only thing for the pivot - thereafter, it cannot get you any "Extra" movement by the numbers. I can understand not liking it, and don't have an issue with people that prefer not to play that way. To each their own, IMO, as long as no one is breaking the rules or browbeating someone for playing within them in a way they don't like (far different from simply politely preferring to not play a certain way).

    The disembarkation move is what gets you the first turn charge, BC - you disembark 2" to the back of your base, giving you the 6" move, 6" assault, and 2" of "Extra" room ... just enough to charge people if your opponent is too far forward. You're right about the 12" "bubble" that you can't scout to within.

  4. I need an edit function on my own comments - the pivot also helps you get a tad further if your opponent ISN'T deployed right along the line.

  5. Mike, I completely spaced. I see what you mean about the disembark to get the extra 2" in your first turn then the 6" / 6". For some reason I read the above as deploying the extra 2" during the scout move.

  6. I think James not Jim was referring to this question of the main rulebook FAQ:

    Q: Does a unit with the Scout special rule pass it on to any vehicle it is embarked in? (p76)
    A: No.

  7. That clarifies that a unit with Scout cannot pass it onto a Land Raider, etc., but the Scout USR specifically states that they pass it on to a DEDICATED transport.

    So, do they pass it on to ANY transport? No.
    Do they specifically pass it on to dedicated? Yes.

  8. And, I know it was more of a rules question, but I was feeling Vassal creative, thus ... post!

  9. Thanks for the response Mike! Icareane hit the nail on the head with where I was going though, the wording is somewhat confusing to be honest. If they had worded it something like "The unit will pass the scout ability onto any dedicated transport" then it would be a lot clearer, it's a little vague and contradicting with how it's worded.

    Thanks again for all the effort you do on your blog! :)

  10. Just so onlookers have the quotes in front of them of relevance, here they are:

    Under the Scouts USR on page 76 of the BRB:

    "If a unit with with this ability is deployed inside a dedicated transport vehicle, it confers the scout ability to the transport too."

    and the GW 40k rulebook FAQ page 6:

    Q: Does a unit with the Scout special rule pass it on to
    any vehicle it is embarked in? (p76)
    A: No.

  11. MVB thanks for putting this together The diagrams help a lot. I am 99%V I'll have to take Coteaz as a HQ for my new list and I am still on the fence between Libby and the GM. This is another good case for the GM...

    Pivoting should be well accepted by now, because that's what the rules tell you to do.

    I'm still not convinced about hammerhand stacking, can you please point out a definitive reference that settles the issue? (And not the NOVA FAQ, lol)

  12. Gerbil: From the GW main rulebook FAQ:

    Q: Do the effects of the same psychic power cast
    multiple times on the same unit stack? (p50)
    A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise.

  13. Pivot then movement is illegal. Only people who don't actually read the rules, and follow the paraphrased quotes of others believe that it is legal. If that sounds harsh - so be it.

    If you want to really look at it - read the vehicle movement rules (again) and try to find where it says "Pivots are free." I'll give you a hint - it never says that.

    What it says is that pivoting doesn't reduce your movement. It also states that if you "only pivot" and "pivot alone" then it doesn't count as moving once you get to the shooting phase. In other words - it is still movement. And vehicle movement is measured from the hull.

    If you really want to attempt to defend that it is legal - defend this:

    If your deployment is 12", and your maximum movement is 12" - how can you be further than 24" deep on the table after your "legal" movement?

    Because the "extra movement" that you are "gaining" by pivoting will put you beyond that point, especially for odd shaped tanks like Land Raiders and especially Dark Eldar Raiders and Ravagers.

    Really, if you want to take a closer look at vehicle movement re-read it from start to finish. Then ask yourself, why am I measuring 2" forward, then turning, then 2", then turning, etc, etc? Where in the rules does it say to do that?

    Personally, after having a few lengthy discussions (re: arguments) about this pivoting thing, and re-reading the rules a few times myself - I've come to the following understanding of how to move vehicles.

    1) Before touching vehicle at all, measure from any point on the hull outwards the distance that you want to move the vehicle.

    2) Pick up the vehilce and place the vehicle down, with whatever facing you want, with the entire hull within that distance.

    That's it. Simple, isn't it? And while GW was attempting to simplify things with these rules... do you really think they'd make vehicle movement more complex/harder? Or do you think they'd simplify it too?

    Why measure each and every turn/movement/etc? That's not what the rules say.

  14. Anon - you don't measure turns, so let's get that part of your post cleared up.

    Pivoting alone is not considered movement - so it's clear enough that pivoting (alone) is certainly free.

    Beyond that, trying to refute someone's argument where they quote the rules without doing so yourself is laughable.

  15. Have we all gone blind or something? Don't follow RAW anymore?

    Last time I checked FAQ>Rulebook when it comes to rules.

    "Q: Does a unit with the Scout special rule pass it on to any vehicle it is embarked in? (p76)
    A: No."

    ...any vehicle it is embarked on...
    ...any vehicle...
    Dedicated transports fall under the wide umbrella of "ANY vehicle".

    How is this not clear?

  16. Does it pass it on to ANY vehicle? No.

    Does it pass it on to dedicated transports? Yes.

    The FAQ answer is clarifying that you ONLY pass it on to a dedicated transport, per the explicitly written USR. For serious.

    "You can use a coupon printed by us for 20% off in this store."
    "Can you use ANY coupon that says 20% off in your store?" "No."

  17. This is a common case of someone not reading the actual USR entry in line with reading the FAQ. Might as well have asked a FAQ question that said "Can ANY unit move 12" in the movement phase? No." and therefore said that skimmers and vehicles and the like can no longer move 12".

  18. If the FAQ said that, I would agree that the interpretation, silly as it is, is RAW. Move 11.99", but not 12".

    This really seems like a pick-and-choose-the-rules-you-want tactic, but given how vague the rules of this game are I really don't want to argue it. Fuck the shitty GW FAQ's anyway, do it if you want.

    The idea that this only "clarifies" in the way you read it is totally RAI, not RAW, and it's not your place to tell me how to read the FAQ absent the designers context. But I don't really care that much, and I hate RAI v RAW arguments, so this will be my last post on it.

  19. I'm not looking to spark any hostility, Biscuit. I disagree, b/c there's no writing of the particular FAQ answer that includes an explanation of where the emphasis on the writing is, if spoken aloud. It's simply poor writing, b/c it can be read in multiple fashions.

    The fact is, it doesn't say "Can units pass Scouts onto transports." It says "Can units pass Scouts onto any transports." The use of the word "any" is superfluous unless following the "version" of RAW I'm espousing.

    So, let's go back again to first in time and FAQ to follow ...

    Rule is written, states Scouts may be passed onto dedicated transports.

    Question follows, Can Scouts be passed on to any transport?

    Answer follows, no.

    There's no actual contradiction or issue here.

  20. Au contraire Mike. If we're not being so all-encompassing linguistically, then I can't see how you can justify your Combat Squads nerf.

    FWIW - I agree, but I can see Biscuits' point.

  21. Lets try this again. Long comment, and it didn't post the first time.

    @King: I figured in a rules discussion about vehicle movement, people would know where the rules are... but lets go through them then.

    The main problem that people do not understand is Pivoting *is* considered movement. There is simply an exception given to it for the shooting phase.

    BRB pg 57: "Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however immobilised vehicles may not even pivot)."

    Now - if you only read the first half of the sentence and stop there you might be excused in thinking that pivots are free. Maybe. But the problem in doing that is that if you read the entire sentence it becomes clear what it is refering to. If you "pivot alone" then you count as stationary. Lets see what that means.

    BRB pg 58: "Vehicles that remained stationary may fire all of their weapons (remember that pivoting on the spot does not count as moving)."

    So if you only pivot on the spot, you count as stationary when you get to the firing phase. You still count as moving though - as you can see referenced in Transports (BRB pg 66 and 67): "If the vehicle moved before its passengers got aboard, it may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot)." and "If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that Movement phase."

    And to comment on the illegality of pivoting, then measuring your movement from the new position of the vehicle - lets consult the movement rules on BRB pg 11. "Once a unit has completed all of its movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one, and so on, until the player has moved all of the units he wishes to move." and "Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit." and "You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit." We can also check out the diagram on page 12. Under vehicle movement (pg 56) it states: "Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore...)."

    So for vehicles, you measure from the hull to determine how far they can move. That we agree on. You *can* pivot alone, and count as being stationary (in the firing and assault phases). But you can not then go and continue moving that vehicle because it breaks the rules for movement on Page 11 - you are going back and moving the unit for a second time that Movement Phase. The unit *must* complete its entire move in one complete action. Since pivoting is *part* of the vehicle's movement, you always measure from the original position of the vehicle - not after any pivoting.

    Which means if you pivot the vehicle, then start measuring the distance you move - you are cheating. As per the diagram on page 12 - you are giving yourself extra distance.

    If you go by exactly the rules as written - the proper process is:

    1) Before touching the vehicle at all, measure from any point on the hull out the distance your vehicle wants to move. Mark that point.
    2) Pick the vehicle up and place it back down with 100% of its hull positioned so that none of the hull travelled farther than that reference point.

    Those two steps adhere to all the rules written about vehicle movement. They also solve the issues of "gaining distance" because of turning. Nowhere does it state you must completely measure out each little movement forwards and backwards for each inch the vehicle moves. In 5th Edition they simplified many different things about the rules... why wouldn't they simplify this section too?