So I played 40K briefly when I was in Junior High and early HS. This was second edition. I played Tyranids. When I picked 40K back up again in my mid-20s, I initially ebayed a Necron army b/c it was cheap and I was told they were easy to learn, this was in 4th Edition. Within a month I had a Tyranid army again, and I've played them consistently ever since.
I'm disappointed in what we know so far about the new codex (which is almost everything). I don't think the sky is falling - I'm sure a few good lists will come out of it - but it's roundly bad at dealing with the 2 "best" codices of the moment (Eldar/Tau), and perhaps also even worse in terms of internal balance than it was before.
Here's my initial thoughts on it, keeping in mind all of this will be revised / may change based upon holding and playing with the total codex (don't lose your minds yet folks) ...
The first thing you'll note is Tyranids no longer have access to book powers. This combines with no access to allies to make them unique among 40k armies - they have 0 book power access and 0 ally access. People keep saying supplements may change this, and they may. Let's look at the present and be happy if the future changes things, however. Right now, Nids are the only codex that does not permit you to access the rest of the game via allies, and does not permit you psychic flexibility in terms of tree selection and varied powers.
Instead, they have access to the Powers of the Hive Mind. OK, cool, well these are probably awesome since there are no other powers available to them besides these.
Primaris - +6" Synapse range. This is a really boring primaris, but will probably be important, as Tyranid synapse generally got more difficult to field, and one of only 2 "hide-able" synapse Independent Characters were deleted from the codex altogether. Meanwhile, the other one (Tyranid Primes) received a greater than 50% base points increase with no changes to its functionality or power level. Basically, your functional synapse is going to feel overpriced and/or suboptimal with a few exceptions, so having as much extension of synapse as possible may actually be valuable.
1 - Catalyst - Blessing. Psyker's unit and one other friendly unit w/in 12" gains FNP. This is actually pretty decent.
2 - The Horror - Forces a pinning test with a LD modifier, 24" Malediction. This is the Broodlord's base power; we'll talk later about why it's pretty bad on a Broodlord against what people are kneejerking to. IT's useful enough situationally.
3 - Onslaught - Same basically; 24" blessing that lets a unit run+shoot. Situationally useful.
4 - Paroxysm - 24" malediction that is -D3 WS/BS. Randomly acquired and a straight nerf of its older version.
5 - Psychic Scream - Doom of Malantai Power basically. 2d6+2 - LD wounds with no armor/cover, nova 6" ... this is a fine power if you can deliver it, but there are no more spore pods, which means accurate delivery requires combos such as lictors, and ... well, you might use it you might not in a given game, which is what this boils down to.
6 - Warp Blast - While ML2, that's not too inhibiting given the way it is applied in the codex, but it's largely unchanged (I think the AP of the Lance went from 1 to 2, though, so that's disappointing).
Psychic powers are basically "OK," none of them are all that bad, the Primaris is a little underwhelming.
Shadow in the Warp is -3LD to enemy psykers w/in 12" more or less ... this is a little better [for Tyranids] for sub-LD10 psykers and a little worse [for Tyranids] against the primary type of psykers, LD10. Not a huge change as I'm given to understand from those who are more mathematically committed than I am.
Synapse - Fearless/auto-regroup, nothing changed. Eternal was not added, which is a little disappointing from the perspective of making the mid-range T4 bio-constructs useful in take all comers gaming.
Largely unchanged, honestly. Scything Talons were nerfed (no longer offer any form of re-roll to hit, and are just "weapons" with AP6). The AP6 is nice I guess, if you want to kill 16% more orks and kroot and tyranid. But you didn't struggle killing those as it was. Rending Claws were buffed, basically staying the same but gaining AP5 to boot.
The various common upgrades got a little better in some cases (Adrenal Glands = furious/fleet instead of just furious) but generally also got more expensive. The shunting of points from the creatures to their often-mandatory upgrades accounts for a lot of why the dex doesn't actually play cheaper / with more models at a first glance. Some upgrades were stripped from the dex entirely, like the armored shell ... you can't get a real 2+ save unless you're a Tyrannofex.
The "fake" 2+ save is here ... an expensive ugprade that lets you have a 2+ for just an assault phase, every other assault phase. Hooray.
The bio-artefacts as a whole are generally awful.
Maw-Claws of Thyrax - for 10 points you get rending claws that give you Preferred Enemy during the game against things you've killed one of with that model, for that model. So you get to re-roll a few 1's. Don't bother.
The Miasma Cannon - for 25 points you get a weapon that's not really any better or worse than most of the other already-available bio-weapons. Either a 2+ to wound AP4 template or a 2+ to wound AP4 blast. Skip, far too expensive (or you could argue, far too weak and non-differentiated from standard bioweaponry).
The Norn Crown - +6" synapse range (non-psy-casted Dominion, or a boost to Dominion) is alright ... UNTIL YOU REALIZE IT COSTS 40 POINTS. Horrible.
The Ymgarl Factor - +1S, +1A, or +1 save every assault phase, for just the assault phase, and you can't repeat the same one twice ... and it costs 40 points. AWFUL.
The Reaper of Obliterax - This doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. It's a Bonesword with +1S and +3I. The problem is it costs 30 more points than a Bonesword, clocking in at 45 total. Again, skip.
I don't see any of the bio-artefacts as being worth taking.
Onto the units
Hive Tyrant - Points decrease to 165, upped to ML2 psyker, but lost access to anything but Powers of the Hive Mind. The double devourer flyrant you'll see poeple harping on is still fairly bad, a unit that was used a lot in 5th Edition but never won major events and never concerned serious players. It still clocks in at 230 points at least to field this build-out, so it's more affordable but still not at all cheap.
Swarmlord - Mega nerf. His weapons lost their ability to force re-rolled successful invulnerable saves. He lost access to powers like Biomancy which were critical for his points value. He lost one roll on the psy tree (in exchange for getting ML3 instead of ML2, but this is a substantial nerf regardless overall). Fortunately they reduced his cost to 285. WAIT WHAT? They added 5 points to his cost. Oh.
Tyrant Guard - These are about what they were, and are actually fine. Crushing claws are OK on them too, though at a substantial cost.
Old One Eye - Cheaper but largely the same. Doesn't have any special kind of regen. He's still pretty bad. I don't know how to tell people that a T6 W4 3+ save MC is never going to last long enough to apply cool regen or FNP powers. He's really not 100 points better than a stock Carnifex.
Tervigon - OH THE PAIN.
No one should be surprised that "the" Monster choice from the last codex got targeted, but let's see how much.
He gained +1I
He lost access to more than 1 psy power, and is ML1, and lost access to all book powers.
He lost the ability to up his attacks profile with crushing claws.
He lost the buffs given to nearby gaunts, inclusive of Leadership, Poison, Furious when he has those.
He retained giving Counter-attack to nearby gaunts, but of course they aren't using his Ld anymore.
When he spawns gaunts, he can still burn out and he spawns the same quantity, but the gaunts themselves cannot move or assault upon arrival.
He can only be made a Troop for each 30-model Termagant squad you take. Though termagants became cheaper, that's a 70 point uptick to enable Tervitroops right off the bat. That's ok, though, b/c he probably went down in cost due to all the dramatic nerfs right?
Wrong. The "Cost" for that dramatic ... improvement??? 35 points. Tervigons are now 195 base.
Tyranid Prime - More pain.
Basically exactly what it was before, but possibly a lost wound (I can't recall off top of head if they were T5/W4 or T5/W3). Regardless, let's assume he's the same. The cost for no changes? Increase his points base by over 50% from 80 to 125. Really?
What's important is the Prime is the codex's only IC synapse, which becomes even more important due to Instinctive Behavior being generally a much worse thing to have happen.
Parasite of Mortrex - The other IC synapse in the codex has been removed from the game.
Deathleaper! He's HQ now! Cool! Wait he's more or less the same. Snap shots only to shoot at him, which is an upgrade (And also means he can't be flamed or blasted, which is kinda cool). He costs a little less I think also, and is pretty decent still stats wise. Not an IC, so no hope of him being anything other than a stationary target. Still applies a LD debuff to enemy IC of choice. Overall actually pretty decent. Hooray!
Tyrants are still IMO a subpar unit that costs too much and is too targetable, requiring massive points investment of guard to make them even last a while unless you're playing against pretty subpar or niche opponents. They are cheaper, so at least there's that.
Tervigons are utterly terrible, overcosted and with almost no serious contribution to make to the game. The Swarmlord is not worth his points, at all. Old One Eye is terrible. You may find yourself often taking points for a Norn Crown Tyranid Prime despite the absurd overcosting ... and Death Leaper maybe ... b/c what else are you going to do? Besides, you'll need to hide your Synapse in 30-model gaunt units; none of the other HQ or synapse units can survive sustained fire from ElTau, especially not at their costs.
I don't think a lot of peopled owned a Tyranid Prime or Death Leaper if they were 5th Edition players, so you know, buy one of each. Otherwise you probably already own anything you'll use or try to force using from this (Tervigons, Flyrants). Cool, almost no cost!
Tyranid Warriors - As far as I can tell, these more or less didn't change. You can buy 4 point frag grenades for them. They're horrible. There's no way to give them eternal, or to increase their T, so they're super fragile to anything that can double them out (like, I Don't know, cover save ignoring re-rolling to hit S8 pie plating riptides w/ trick commanders? OH THOSE AREN'T COMMON). Nobody took Tyranid Warriors in 5th, and nobody will take them in 6th, outside casual gaming in environments where the social contract tailors things to allow their functionality (which is fine I suppose, but why design units / games where things don't work unless you have long conversations and hit-or-miss gaming sessions to figure out what's ok or not to bring from the base legal codex??).
Genestealers - These basically didn't change. They're still awful. Broodlords get The Horror by default, instead of the Stealers getting some kind of Flesh Hook access. On face value, you'd think "Well cool they can pin a unit before assaulting it, so it won't benefit from being assaulted through cover, it's kinda like grenades!" The problem is, The Horror is a Malediction, which means the Broodlord needs to have LOS to the unit you want to maledict a turn in advance. In that interim opponent's turn, the Broodlord must subsequently survive incoming fire (and he only Looks Out Sir on a 4+), and the unit you want to assault must still be in LOS after having access to a full player turn to move out of LOS of the Broodlord or simply block his LOS. So, nice thought, but totally impractical. Let me know when they release an errata that gives Genestealers some way to survive being exposed to enemy fire for a turn.
Termagants - These are basically what they were, only a little more expensive if you want to give them furious/poison. Last edition they were 5 points, 6 for furious OR poison, 7 for both. Now they're 4 base, 6 for furious OR poison, 8 for both. Yes, furious gained fleet and is thus better. Termagants are still your mainstay, but it's trickier now b/c you don't get to apply poison with Tervigons, so you're going to have to either sac fleet/furious or spend 8 points/model to have them be flexibly able to deal with a variety of threats. You'll possibly need to anyway, b/c ... well, that's this codex's problem. Not much in it is any good.
Unit composition did improve somewhat, as you can selectively equip the brood w/ Devourers, thus building ablative non-devourer wound suckers into it. Some things you can play with here that might be OK. This is cool b/c you don't have to buy any models if you're a long-standing Tyranid player.
Hormagaunts - Same old same old. Termagants do exactly what Hormagaunts do, but they do it better, and they have S4 AP5 guns.
Rippers - These got more expensive. I have no idea why. They don't score, they're ID'able, they don't hit for anything. Ummm ... continue to sit on shelf and look pretty!
Troop Summary - Nothing changed, literally. Gaunts are your only good Troops. Have fun, you don't have to spend any money to get set for the new codex!
Hive Guard - They gained access to a new gun for +5 points that's Haywire. Their old gun basically remained the same. They lost 1 Ballistic Skill. They did not gain skyfire-ability or anything. Cool, cool, sounds like they should drop to 45 points and have a +5 (I guess, not sure why) for the Haywire gun. Wait, no, +5 points base. ???????????????? Yet still for many list types will be mandatory. That's cool, LESS NEED TO BUY NEW MODELS YET AGAIN!
Lictors - 15 points cheaper, 100% still crappy. Some people will find uses for them in gimmick style lists with their deep strike teleport homer nature or whatever, but they're still really really dumb/unfluffy. WE SPENT WEEKS CAREFULLY SECRETING OURSELVES AWAY AND PLANNING FOR HTIS ONE MOMENT!
/leaps from cover ... SURPRISE! Pauses, lets opponents carefully arm and aim their weapons, BS'es with buddy Lictors b/c they're forced to operate in ... SQUADS? What? Anyway then they get shot, but they sure did surprise those guys!
Zoanthropes - These guys were hit hard. Previously they could use warp lance/blast each, with lance being slightly better. They rolled psy tests separately, which meant targets rolled Deny the Witch separately, which meant in general better odds of at least a couple shots getting off and getting to actually roll to hit against their target. Now here's how they work. They still get lance/blast, and they fire it as a unit. A unit of 3 fires 3 shots, 2 fires 2 shots, etc., but it's just one Psy Test (Brotherhood of Psykers). So you have a 24% chance right off the bat of either failing the Ld10 test or the opponent DTW'ing on a 6+ (assuming they aren't psykers of some sort, and Zoeys are only ML1 so any 2+ is dtw'ing on a 4+). Then, you have to roll to hit, so each shot then has a 33% chance of missing. Then you have to actually pen/wound, get through cover, etc. These are terrible. They can roll an additional power on the hive mind chart I believe, but ... ugh. Don't bother. They have 2 warp charges a turn but their main weapon is WC 2 so you'll only use that other power if there's nothing to shoot at with your 6 wounds of marine-level saves and toughness hovering about looking silly.
Venomthropes - Basically the same, but I think a little cheaper, and they got buffed from a 5+ cover save to an aura applying Shrouded. This is actually substantial in the upgrade department, but still doesn't address the fact that Venomthropes are independently targetable and not very durable. Competitive-minded/smart opponents will simply shoot these over-large T4 models with their large LOS footprint, applying things like trick commanders and serpent shields to the task, and that'll be that. AT least they'll have to shoot them first, vice having to apply fire to an army full of 2+ and 3+ cover saves. They're not terrible.
Haruspex - The new close combat variant of the new ground-monster/oval-base kit. He has one more initiative than the Tervigon, 1 more strength and otherwise the same fundamental combat stats. That's right, the combat monster is a slow-moving WS3 S6 guy with 3 attacks and a tail weapon. He's actually quite bad. I don't know what the point of the unit is, I know it has some hinky things that work ok fighting a large blob or squad, but they aren't actually THAT great at said task, and all of it is hampered by the fact that this big ole killer monster hits guardsmen on a 4+, and there's almost no opportunity in the entire codex to get re-rolls on things like to-hit rolls. This guy isn't worth it compared to any of the other elites. He's like the monstrous version of the Pyrovore. Well, maybe he's better than a Pyrovore.
SPEAKING OF WHICH
They made Pyrovores cheaper and have another wound and such. They didn't change them otherwise. They're awful forever. Next.
Elite Summary: Hive Guard, maybe Venomthropes. While you're at it, said Hive Guard were nerfed for no real explicable reason and cost more. Hooray. I don't understand why they wouldn't buff the new model, and some of the never-ordered backlog, to make them decent.
Shrikes - Basically the same, still bad.
Raveners - Basically the same, still pretty bad, maybe somehow better though I don't really have a way to explain why I think that. I've always loved Raveners, but I can't see taking them over Gargoyles still.
The Red Terror - Hit with all of your attacks, with no re-rolls to hit, and you can remove a model you're in base with, if you're in base with it, and if ... aw fug it just realize it's like 85 points and move on, but be glad they added Red Terror back. Only, then be sad they deleted several models too, so apparently they don't believe in win-win for their players ... you get nothing unless you have something taken.
Flying Rippers - lol
Spore Mines - why are awkwardly floaty things that have to be delivered by a heavy support creature having an orgasm considered fast attack? You know what don't answer that, but move along past this entry.
Gargoyles - these are still the shining star of the FA section, though they were arguably nerfed, though they also guarantee blinding what they attack.
Harpy and Crone - The reason these were unpopular in the past was not that there wasn't a model. They were unpopular because they are a T5 4+ save FMC with a giant LOS footprint and no invul save of any kind. Also, the Crone can only fire 2 tentaclids at most a turn, and that's if he doesn't drool on somebody or vector strike something. Or she, or whatever, I don't know, but both of these are poor units. People may take them anyway just hoping they can I guess do something before they're blown out of the sky by a single quad gun round (4 hits and wounds are likely, and a failed grounding test thereafter would do them in).
Fast Attack Summary: Yet again, stick to the models you already owned if you're playing serious Nid lists, Gargoyles.
Carnifex - To someone who played Nids in 4th edition, when there was less firepower going around and Carnifexes were only 85 points base, this unit still feels really bad. It kind of is. But there are a couple builds that are not awful now due to the lowered cost. Gunfexes hiding in backfield flinging a S6 large blast pinning and a S9 small blast seem functional enough. You could also run them as dakka.
Biovores - Basically what they were before, good enough.
Trygon - Taking away re-rolls to hit at the cost of 10 points cheaper but more expensive upgrades is kind of a messy exchange. It's hard to be a big fan of these guys still; they show up, fire their little electric stuff of, and die. With reserves manipulation difficult for Tyranid, it's hard to conceptualize the right way to go here, but there might be some kind of combo list with a lot of reserves arriving and using Lictors. The problem of course is there are a lot of things in this game that punk MC's shooting and cc, and you can't get around the requisite turn after arrival of just sitting there holding your junk and hoping not to die.
Trygon Prime - Still meh also.
Mawloc - Upgraded and made a little random at the same time. You can't safely go after large target clusters with the Mawloc anymore, b/c you no longer push models out of the way after you blast up from under them. Instead, you repeat your damage roll from the underground arrival. If things are still left after the second roll, the Mawloc Mishaps. People think these are much better b/c they are cheaper, and I agree they are better for the most part, but whereas you used to be able to safely fling them at large clusters of enemy targets and thus discourage that kind of clustering, now you can't safely do that at all, and so you run a risk of mishap'ing in the worst of ways. Now, that said, you only have a 1/6 chance of an actual super "Bad" mishap result, but even being placed right where they want can mean sticking your Mawloc in the open, under the gun, without cover, and ready for a quick and sloppy death. Not sure how I feel at all about this one yet. Might be hopeful?
Exocrine - Range and BS and some other factors make this an unreliable model at the cost. 6 Plasma shots sounds really good until you realize most turns you're going to be missing with half of them. Still, it's not terrible, you just wish it had a way to get a higher S than 7 on the alternate mode.
Tyrannofex - Basically better, but still an underwhelming unit. Hey look a 2+ save!
Heavy Support Summary - Kinda meh, but maybe the best FOC area? Maybe? There's some potential for various lists in using exocrines, maybe tfexes, carnifexes and biovores. None of them are great units, however. You might actually spend like 50 or 100 bucks getting this up to speed, I guess?
So as a whole what we have is a codex that basically does what the last one does, but does it less well. The psychic powers were all nerfed, most of the good units were nerfed, the units they tried to make into the "new hotness" are not actually the new hotness at all.
IF you're an extant Tyranid player, the nice thing is your investment to make the best reasonably decent list is probably going to be pretty light. In terms of using the rules to sell more models to existing customers (their primary sales model), this looks like a substantial failure on Games Workshop's part. Even players who find ways to be decently good with Nids aren't going to really need to buy many new models to do so. So I guess that's kind of a plus.
In summary, while every other codex has access to:
3-4 different codices per army via the allies matrix in conjunction w/ formations
Very solid book powers
Power units that can be spammed in a pinch to up the power level of the dex
No allies of any kind (at least presently)
No book powers, unique among all codices, and access to very average codex powers
Literally no clear-cut power units within the codex (no riptide, missiletide, wave serpent, gravbiker, etc., equivalent of any sort)
Thank you for explaining this. You were able to explain all the points I want to say, but don't have the energy or patience to explain to all the people who don't understand.ReplyDelete
Flying hive tyrants will still be your go-to, gained BS4, and dropped 30 points, but still way too fragile for what it does.ReplyDelete
lictors/death leaper lost shrouded, only stealth now. so balls.
You can get a relic, the primaris, and warlord trait to boost synapse to like 30". but for what reason? synapse gives basically no boost except to not roll on the even crappier IB rules.
Speaking of warlord traits, arguably worse one out there?
My 1500 list is exactly the same, an no better off against any 6th ed book, still horrible against fliers and worse off against most with loss of biomancy. Sure I'm not supposed to use the same list as last codex, but what else when I'm already using the best stuff, which now got worse and nothing else got better?
All of this from a level headed person helps show that GW does not have a clear idea of what they are doing with some armies.ReplyDelete
It's probably due to the fact that none of the current developers care. Eldar are Phil Kelly's baby and IG are Cruddace's. How much you wanna bet IG don't get a really good meta changing codex? To a degree it's the same with Space Marines but they can't get away with completely taking a crap on a corner stone of the game.Delete
Such a pathetic attempt at a codex. Dunno what GW was thinking...I'm gutted tbhReplyDelete
Oh, the Horror is a 24" malediction, so what's this "turn in advance" stuff? If you're in range to charge, you'll be in range to cast it beginning of your movement phase.ReplyDelete
You must be in line of sight to your target at the start of your turn, which means the Broodlord and Genestealers must be exposed to fire for a turn at the least. Further, if you're only barely exposed to try and minimize incoming fire from other units, the targeted unit has a turn of its own to shuffle that little bit out of LOS and render The Horror pointless.Delete
Unless you're playing in a meta where Genestealers can cost-effectively expose themselves to fire (especially from Tau/Eldar, or really any kind of dakka), you're not going to get to use the Horror as often as you'd like. It's about the same problem as trying to use rhinos or other such vehicles as assault vehicles. You have to get out and sit there for a turn with your thumb up your buns and hoping people don't just blow you away or move out of reasonable assault range. Same problem for Genestealer squads spending [even more] points on a Horrorlord.
Mike, I don't see anything that requires a malediction to have LoS.Delete
Still don't think it will work well, but why do you say it needs LoS?
Coredump, yes you need LOS because you need to "target", and that's defined.Delete
But, MIke, really having LOS blocking is not super common, anyway. Even at NOVA it's only a couple pieces. Point is, in at least 95% of games, the stealers were going to be in LOS of their target beginning of the turn anyway. Yes, that means Taudar can blow them away but that was going to be true already.
The point is, stealers don't survive in this meta if they can be seen. If you're somehow able to hide them, you'll lose that advantage trying to get Horror off.Delete
Also, psychic powers are defined in the rulebook in a clear way regarding the requirement for LOS to targets. Exceptions apply when there is no target (i.e., the Eldar battle focus blessing aura).
Man, I knew that rule in regards to transports... somehow screwed it up for foot psykers. (Heck, its even in bold print)Delete
I was only looking at the wording change between Witchfire and Maledictions.... thanks for the correction.
I disagree with the conclusion that the book won't be competitive but that's just at first glance. Guess we'll see :)ReplyDelete
It wont be competitive because there is nothing to help the key Synapse creatures survive. There is so much potential that could just use one good rule (like Battle Focus or Supporting Fire) it could be good. As it is, it will be a casual fun game of watching your MCs get blown up by any near competitive list. The Exocrine will be a good piece of the new stuff. The rest will be crap.Delete
Honestly, this book just seems like it was rushed out with little though, and no playtesting, like someone just changed a deadline or something.
I'm just not seeing what you guys are seeing. But like I said, I could be wrong. It's been known to happen.Delete
The biggest problem I've seen, is that there is basically 0 change to the troops besides a slight point decrease in gaunts, which came along side nerfs to their function, so no net gain. Tervigons got worse, more expensive, and less durable.Delete
It was not uncommon for all two or three of my tervigons to get killed off, along with the gaunts. I don't see how nids are supposed to win objective based games when the game has changed to such high rate of fire guns our quantities don't work anymore.
Ehh, I like the stuff I am seeing so far.ReplyDelete
It's a really grim time to be playing nids..... They have joined CSM as the red headed stepchilds of 40k...... Nice summary, if a little crushing to see it all layed out in black and white like that....ReplyDelete
Myself as well. I started my 40k "competitive" career with nids and they were my entry into the hobby, tournament circuit, and blogosphere. I'm one of the easiest people to get excited about bugs.ReplyDelete
This new book has me so down in the dumps I can't even look at my army.
I made the transition from 4th to 5th without problems,
but here I just don't know what to do...
Even ignoring balancing most units are unchanged and work the exact same. No fresh wind to at least shake things up.
I had high hopes given the successes of necron, chaos, SM, tau, and eldar codexes, each of which has multiple builds and interesting units with rules both fun to play and effective. I knew better than to expect anything grossly effective like the wraithknight or riptide but hoped for sanity and dared to hope for cults. I should be less surprised at how down I am over this though. Very frustrating.Delete
"Within a month I had a Tyranid army again, and I've played them consistently ever since."ReplyDelete
Except for a less than brief dalliance with Straken and the IG. ;)
And really, buying miniatures is a purchase, an expense, not an investment. There is a difference.
More Malifaux soon?
Anything that retains, or increases, its value is an investment. Which 40k miniatures clearly do. In short, you don't know what you are talking about.Delete
So...didn't read all this, but...if the codex is not an improvement, why not just stick with the last one? Maybe add in the new units, but rebel! Stick to the old one. I don't understand why players shouldn't have that option at tournaments in the first place.ReplyDelete
lol because this is the new codexDelete
sure in friendly environments you can do what ever you want, you can even make your own rules if you want. However if you want to play in any semi-competitive environment you have to stick to the newest rules and cant just say "well i dont like those rules so i am going to use these rules instead" otherwise it would just be a mess. Could you imagine all the CSM players using the old 4th edition codex but adding in the new helldrakes?
Sorry but there are the new rules, however crap they may be
Um, is the last codex not compatable with 6th edition? Why would it be confusing? Do tournament players not have working brains? Would it not be possible for TOs to compile the rules for their players? Sorry your reasons don't make sense. Tournaments don't have to follow GW's word as gospel.Delete
Honestly I don't think we as a community have to swallow everything that GW tries to feed us. The releases of late have clearly shown that GW does not give a crap about the quality of rules they are releases. As far as I can tell, there is no quality assurance done, like they do for models. Why would you tell the community, "tough shit, you've got to take these new rules." Good communication, resonance in the online community, and the addition of new units from the new codex should not be too difficult for a group of networked TOs to do. Assuming this new codex is not an improvement. If it is, sure, take it. But if it is universally accepted that it is worse than the last codex, just keep the last codex. I honestly do not understand the logic behind, well, these are the new rules so we HAVE to use them.Delete
Tim, thanks for pointing out this post. An interesting read. I generally agree with your sentiment regarding community feedback. Having not seen the new book, I can't comment on the Chicken Little aspect of some of the responses (not denying them by any stretch, tho).Delete
Assuming nothing more radical is forthcoming, I would say a reasonable approach would be to:
A) Allow 'Nids to continue to roll on the BRB psychic tables outlined in the last FAQ
B) Allow continued use of the mycetic spore pod rules outlined in the previous codex
C) Allow 'Nids to ally with themselves viz secondary detachment FOC
D) Let warriors buy +1T for 5-10 pts each
E) Genestealers buy flesh hooks for 4 points (or whatever is reasonable)
I am sure there are other minor tweaks that would enable basement/tourney 40k parity with other books.
My guess is that in order to deal with tournament play, folks are going to have to adjust how certain armies play. At first blush, the 'Nid book doesn't seem to exist in the same realm as marines, tau, and eldar. If that really is the case, then its up to the community to create an amenable environment for all armies. Like Mike points out, he's been playing 'nids since his induction into the hobby. Why should he be turned off on his favorite army on the simple basis of GWs seemingly arbitrary playtesting.
I guess at the tournament level there is a resistance to changing baseline 40k to allow for playability of all armies. Use the new Tyranid book as the clarion call to the fan base to make all armies playable. Doing so will make pickup games better, make spontaneous basement games better, and make tournament games better.
I thought you were retired, Morgrim Dark ;)Delete
People react in a variety of ways to change. From what little I have heard, there has been a shed-load of change dumped on the 40k verse, and it has caused quite a disturbance. They'll adjust to it, come up with 'houserules,' or find something else. The problem is whose house rules will prevail-- and this includes tournament scenarios.
Speaking of something else, we need to get our respective gaming groups together for some Infinity. I hear you play a mean MO. (and Infinity players can be just as whiny about change... the new 400 point level for tournaments for example.)
Hey G. Rumors of my 40k demise and all that...Delete
I've gotten in a little 40k lately really just throwing down a bunch of models and rolling dice. Jon and I played a game against his new 'nids yesterday and he managed to pull out a win against the Tau! There is definitely change that will need to be adjusted to and I can see how playing 'nids against heavily "optimized" lists will not be so much fun. The only conclusion I can draw is one that has been so oft stayed that it almost bears no repeating - 40k is not a tournament system on its own!
The new Infinity ITS looks good this year. The game types look to rely a lot more on tactics and less on the sneaky "who can snag objectives" or "who will run away first" type missions. Tim is sick of getting beat by my 'MOs (cause they are so faaaabulous) and truth be told I need to add another Infinity faction to my repertoire. Having said that, we definitely need to schedule some time. Hopefully my weekends will start to free up a bit soon...
I was thinking of your retirement from tournament planning. I thought I was retired too, but...Delete
My strategy against (4th ed) 'Nids was easy...lose to them :p But then that was always against MVB and infinite re-rolls.
The new ITS scenarios represent the application of lessons learned from last year. The guys at CB really paid attention to how the scenarios influenced the game. Hence no Lt. specialists anymore for example. Kind of nice, the company actually paying attention to customer/player concerns and addressing them.
We had Lost Cateran, his Bro, and Beer4theBeerGod out last Aug. for a good time. I'll see what we can arrange for the spring.
Ah tournament planning, yes, very much retired. I have been following the wailing and gnashing of teeth inspired by the last couple of GW expansions and now the apparent squatting of the 'Nids. I think that with the removal of soft scores over the years, tournament armies have started to have a distinct sameiness about each one which I frankly find boring. There might be a few outliers but predicting which armies and builds will be predominant at a tournament has become akin to shooting fish in a very small barrel - with an open choke, large gauge shotgun.Delete
To this day, my favorite tournament award was 3rd best sportsman I picked up at the last 200+ player 2008 GW GT up in Baltimore (they combined sports scores, battlepoints, and army theme/paint for that I think). Having said that, the first list my buddy faced that year was a 4th ed Eldar Flying Circus so you never know. I don't think any amount of rules updates and unit bans and missions will encourage mutually enjoyable play but I figured I would post a few thoughts as to how to help the beleaguered Tyranids. Rant off...
overall, strongly agree. Couple of points:ReplyDelete
Paroxysm effect is a nerf, and the randomness is a BIG nerf, but the increased range, and shifting from shooting to Malediction, is a big help.
HIve guard have a lower BS, but got Ignore cover; which the 'mostly' had before; but often still had targets touching their cover and getting a save. Overall, I think they got a slight buff
IIRC, Red terror gets 5 attacks (two sets of scy Tals) and needs 'only' four to swallow whole. Still not worth it.
Spore mines can now move, Run, and assault, which is cool. They are also cheaper. their is some weirdness where the S goes up depending on how many mines... could be a buff or nerf.
Pretty sure you can't take a gunfex, Think it says no STC and HVC. Devourer seem like only real option. Though a 150pt devilfex isn't bad.
Mawloc is interesting. It lost the wording letting it DS from Ongoing reserves. There is some debate if a model can DS from Ongoing Reserves normally. SO it is possible that the Mawloc gets one TftD, then burrows and has to walk on. I have to think this is an oversight.... but who knows.
Interesting hearsay on TTH today, that play testers said the rules were too weak but the codex was pushed out anway, because profit - http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/44749/problem-why-codex-failReplyDelete
Got my book this evening. I'm struggling with generating lists that have sufficient synapse, especially considering the brutal effects of the out of synapse rolls.ReplyDelete
I am looking to get back into (non-vassal) 40k for a while and just ordered the new codex. I enjoyed playing the last codex in it's transition into 6E. I never played competitively, but definitely felt it was lacking, even against semi-competitive tau/IG. I was honestly hoping for either an overhaul or an array of new units. I am bitterly disappointed that we are getting neither. I am not sure what the developers were thinking bringing a new ($50) book that brought only marginally more to the table than the previous version and managed to make everything else already available LESS exciting (while taking out most of the only playable Uniques). It baffles me.ReplyDelete
At this point, I think synapse needs an overhaul. Everything having fearless is amazing, yeah, but the army as a whole is so underwhelming right now, this might have been an easy way to pull it back together. I thought the aura buffs from the tervigon last edtion was AWESOME and just felt..right. After seeing all the dramatic changes to the other army books, I didn't think it would be too far stretched for them to turn synapse into an actual instant-gratification buff aura. At that point, you'd have a lot to play with (different creatures granting different buffs, upgrades for buffs, etc). In fact, I thought the fact that biomancy buffs were one of the few things keeping nids competitive would encourage them to embrace these type of effects. Instead, they do a complete 180 and succeeded in giving the ALMIGHTY hive mind, which IMO is the concept that appeals to me the most about the nids, much less of an impact on the actual game.
Again, I'm not really a competitive player. I was actually hoping to see those "aura buffs" since the 4E-5E transition and felt satisfied with tervigons. I felt more satisfied when the biomancy powers joined the fray. I liked that you could actually see the hive mind's power being channeled into your units (in a way). Now all of that's gone, ha....
Seems like the new codex is well balanced.ReplyDelete
With CSM and Dark Angels...
Makes me wonder if it was designed before Tau, Eldar, Space Marines...
Cause, it doesn't cut it now...
Damn, did you let Stelek write this post? I expect this sort of histrionics from other corners of the web, not here.ReplyDelete
Troops were "literally" not changed? That's a "literally" ridiculous thing to say, and completely inaccurate. You can run 4 point gaunts in your front row for cheap as chips cannon fodder. They also can have fleet, now. So your 8 point gaunts are strictly better then the 7 point gaunts of yesterday.
Anyway, I now you will calm down and have a more rational approach once you've actually play tested the codex, but I'm just disappointed to see you go Stelek on us.
Haha hardly Stelek like ... as the precursor says, there's still hope :)Delete
Your rage gives me sustenance.ReplyDelete
so what is my $1000+ models are worth, AND CAN ACTUALLY achieve what price? 2 ht, 6 zoas, 3lictors(one deathleaper) 16 guants(half and half) 3 carnifexs 40+/- genestealersReplyDelete