More for digestion!
Remember the initial purpose of this, and feedback please.
Remember, sample list builds are great for supporting arguments against certain components.
Furthermore, Chaos retool is undergoing revisions, and your feedback WAS well appreciated and will be represented in v3.
Hrm... After a brief glance, it looks really similar to the current codex just with the ability to not get hamstrung by stuff being overcosted...ReplyDelete
Unfortunately, my first instinct (as would be most players) is Feugan + Dragons in Tank Hunting Serpents + Fire Prisms + Vypers... So... Yeah, S7 Scatter lasers vs Tanks = Very good. That's where I think the balance is broken. I'd be hard pressed to want to take anything else.
At first glance, I quite like it. Having played eldar for years, the current book's main issue is the cost, which this addresses.ReplyDelete
I also don't see a clear troop choice, as all look to be attractive choices, which sits well with me and indicates that there are probably multiple "good" builds to be made.
I can see the build of the above poster being good, but I think I'd lean more towards one of two builds: a wraith themed army for the resilient troops and easy to obtain AT, with the new 18 inch range, they're actually useful. Or a mech army utilizing asurmen + dire avengers.
Honestly..why doesn't GW just hire you to rewrite books. Things would take 1/10th the time and have more thought put into them..
First up - kudos on some bold changes. The point reductions are very much needed.ReplyDelete
Some quick off the cuff notes:
I'd like to see a Bonesinger introduced as an alternate type of warlock with the ability to bestow FNP on a unit he joins, to regen a wraith*, or a chance to reduce a penetration roll by 1-2 for a vehicle he is in/on.
Kennedy has a point on the Fuegan list. Fire Dragons were already a good unit; this just makes them stand out even more. Anyone could build a competitive Fuegan list from this 'dex - only a very experienced Eldar player would be able to build a competitive Maugan Ra or Baharroth list. By comparison, major Fuegan/Fire Dragon abilities will always be in effect while others won't be or simply don't exist. AP1 Bright Lances are AP1 no matter what vs. +1 BS if your objective takers haven't moved. Fire Dragon Tank Hunting wave serpents vs the ability for Banshees to disembark from any point.
I'd tweak at least the following:
Move the AP2 EML to Maugan's defender squads rather than Fuegan's. Alternately, just give Maugan's defender squads AP2 EMLs and Assault4 Shurcannons. Dump the +1 BS rule.
Bring back Reaper targeting vanes allowing them to reduce movement-based vehicle cover saves by 1 (i.e. flat out = 5+ instead of 4+).
Harlies gain Hit and Run.
Drop the Night Spinner to 105 to match the Prism and Falcon.
Allow Warp Spiders to jump more often, but take a cumulative -1 Initiative test each time they do.
Still grappling with the "Guide" mechanic and how it changes the Eldar play dynamics.
A lot to take in.ReplyDelete
The only things I think you did flat out wrong are:
1. You nerfed Runes of Warding. WTF man. It can't simply be "Shadow in the Warp but better that works right".
2. I would MUCH prefer that Farseers get Runes of Witnessing and Spirit Stones as basic equipment with only a slight change in the cost of powers (still having to buy them). This would cause the average Farseer to cost the same as the average psyker in another army.
3. Feugen is too much of a no-brainer choice.
Honestly, it took balls for you to write this. Eldar, both as a book and as an army, are not designed well and have critical flaws. The entire codex and army designs need major revisions (for instance, even in your updates there is virtually no reason to ever take the Avatar or many other units).
Oh and 4+ invul Harlies are a little crazy, they are fine as-is.
Couple of replies M -ReplyDelete
Runes of Warding are FAR too powerful as is. The new Shadow in the Warp is not thematic, and is rather stupid. As per the initial plan, don't take this in the context of the current codices out there, but internally and in comparison to the chaos studydex. We'll "get" to the rest in time, with revisions, etc., as part of the overall proof statement.
I'm not sure Fuegen is a no brainer, so much as the most obvious build. I'd suggest trying to build functionally in other capacities before jumping to that conclusion, but I'll keep an eyeball on it. Like anything, nothing's done perfect on a first go.
As for Harlies, they're a horrible unit. Some people like them as is, but I can't help but blame it on a weak metagame in their area. 5+ invuls as the only save aside from cover on ultra expensive models (all things considered) is simply inappropriate. The 4+ puts them on par with wyches, but with better weaponry (fusion pistols and the option to rend) and over twice the cost, so still probably not "great."
Thanks for the feedback, and same goes for everyone else ...
Ghostin - some good suggestions, will ponder
The "first instinct" of Fire Dragons and a Fuegen build is partially b/c it's good, and partially because we're used to going straight for melta and dragons; consider: it SHOULD be good, the internal retool fails if a fire dragon intensive build isn't very good; working with other build approaches and guide approaches may net you a more surprising internal balance than you think, however; work with it.
Here's the problem I see with your logic regarding Runes of Warding MVB:ReplyDelete
If we were doing say, the Guard codex the same way we are doing this Eldar one, would Vendettas be 130 points? Would chimeras be 55 (or whatever it is)?
Are RoWarding too powerful right now? Maybe. Should they be nerfed? Absolutely not. RoW are one of the very few things Eldar can do right now that actually scare people -and heres the thing- most armies still don't give a shit about them (Tau, DE, Orks, any Marine build without pskyers of which there are many) so why take it away from Eldar?
Most psykers that are worth a shit will clobber Eldar units if they are within 12" regardless if they can use their powers.
Things that are still wrong with the codex after this "fix" -
-What are the point costs of Phoenix Lords?
-Avatar needs reconfigured. Can ride in a vehicle perhaps?
-Shining Spears, Dark Reapers still basically useless (at least give the spiders AP6)
-Wraithlords, guard still terribad.
-D-cannon nerf why?
-Needs a cheap HQ option. Cool Warlock for like 40 points or something. Lets you take Storm Guardians (enhanced troopers like now but with +1BS and WS).
-Do Autarch reserves still stack? God I hope so.
-This is sort of stupid, but no Eldrad. He is dead in the fluff.
-Yriel needs revisited. With GW's new costing of Eternal Warrior I expect him to cost like 180 points.
-Exarchs need revisited. Let them come with one power or something.
Most of these are just stupid nitpicks, with the major ones being a cheap HQ option, not nerfing RoW, and a redesign of the Avatar.
The obvious problem to overcome is how to get proliferation of good anti-tank to units in the army. If the only place to get melta is Storm Guardians, Fire Dragons, and Harlies, what is stopping me from taking only these units and a bunch of Vypers?
Eldar also need that cool, undercosted unit that every army invariably gets. Right now I still see Eldar as an army of specialists that still get rolled when put up against whatever it is they were set to destroy (except Fire Dragons of course lol) without constant babysitting.
I don't know how to fix this. I can tell you are trying, but as you said, changing this codex into something worth playing that still feels like "Eldar" will be very hard indeed. I wouldn't be surprised if the codex (when redone) is nothing but another copy/paste job.
Gotta agree with M on the Avatar. He's just a melta-immune dread with a crappy ranged weapon in the current form. He should have a list-centering impact equivalent to Kairos, the Swarmlord, Vulkan, or Logan. Old fluff was that bar none, if Avatar was on the field, he was the commander. Can you do that and make it worth it?ReplyDelete
Army-wide Stubborn USR is a good start. At least give the poor guy Fleet. I'd consider adding a major boost to get him to that next level of list impact. As the avatar of all things Eldar warfare, something along the lines of allowing the army to re-roll 1's to hit or to wound, but probably not both; maybe this would be a once-per-game, one-turn ability. Perhaps a bonus to the seize the initiative and reserves rolls.
Toying with the Guide mechanic and liking the potentials:
Building a Maugan list is interesting; it takes the Reapers out of the HS FOC where they can't compete with almost anything else in that category and enables a nice shooty backfield that can hold objectives. That brings me to my next topic:
The HS FOC needs help. The ability to have a 0-1 *squadron* of 1-3 of the same vehicles in the HS FOC for Fire Prism/Night Spinner/Falcons would be amazing. Still able to take single vehicles as single HS slots, but one slot as a squadron would be smokin' hot.
More as I find time to toy around with different lists..
Since when did a little thing like being dead invalidate a character from being in the codex? He's hardly the only example, and my named HQs die with startling regularity.
Also, I am beginning to wonder if big scrolling flashing letters saying "do not compare to existing codices" is really going to be required on every one of these posts. People are not noticing the friendly reminders buried in the body text.
Just curious, but are you going "fix" every codex?ReplyDelete
overall looks really cool.ReplyDelete
A few things however:
I know you aren't trying to balance this against the game, just internally as a whole, but in regards to RoWard, it needs to be at least 24", or a farseer is going to be dominated by psychic hoods and rune weapons, with his only options to back up (which can't happen forever on a 4x6, or move forward, which is probably what the SM player wants.
As for the post above that said harlies need Hit and Run, they already have it in their dance of death rule, along with FC.
One thing that still stands out, swooping hawks still stand out as completely worthless against spiders or vypers. Vypers were already good, and just got better, and spiders can now tear things up and get away better.
The problem with hawks is, even if they are less vulnerable, with a 4+ cover, they still can't kill anything! s3 assult 2 guns don't kill anything that an equal amount of pts of shuriken cannons couldnt kill better, and one suicide attack of haywires isn't worth 100+ pts. some options to make them competitive (if they had all the options listed, I would consider them over spiders):
-Give their guns rending, or more shots, and maybe pinning on the turn they DS.
-Change their grenade packs so that they drop haywires as well as the current option, perhaps d3 blasts of the same statline as codex DE, all at any/different targets.
-Shooting and running in the same turn, to add to their always moving nature.
-Intercept as standard.
There are a couple of vague references to aspect warriors being 0-1 and 1-2 with pheonix lords- is that the case?ReplyDelete