"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army with Commander Farsight as its Warlord, you may take Farsight’s Commander Team instead of Farsight’s XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team. "
"Other" is an important word.
So the Farsight Enclaves list is available. It is available for
Here's the rule that's going to be (IMO) the biggest sticky issue due to how it was worded:
FARSIGHT’S COMMANDER TEAM
When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight’s Commander Team. If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead. This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight. They must be equipped exactly as described; the Signature Systems rule above does not apply to them. They can take no other options. Each of the Commander Team models is Unique and has the Independent Character special rule.
So what do we do with this? Here are the key points ...
First off - the Commander Team is a series of Independent Characters, inclusive of Farsight (8 total guys to choose from). These IC's are all pretty good ... the most interesting of which for most players probably being O'Vesa, who is an Independent Character Riptide. Yup, you read that right. Hope your gears are whirring.
That said, O'Vesa is 305 points. If you require a 165 point investment in Farsight in order to enable any of these guys, it's a very different book.
OH, and just as an aside, you can ally a Farsight list with a Tau list. Battle Bros.
So anyway ...
- When choosing a Farsight Enclaves Army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight's Commander Team
So far so good ... if you choose this army, you get access to the team.
- If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead.
So, if Farsight is taken, you can't take a Bodyguard for him, because he is PART of the "Farsight's Commander Team" (he's one of the 8 listed). Here's where it gets sticky.
- This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation Slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight.
This rule does NOT STATE [and do not "paraphrase" it as] "and consists of up to seven battlesuits chosen from the Eight." It states seven OTHER battlesuits. Seven other suits other than WHAT?
To take any of the referenced seven, you need one to begin with for them to be "other" than. That's the strict RAW. The stricted application of RAW would be that unless you can divine who the "first" is, from whom the additional seven can be Other than, you can't take the team at all, and it's a pointless entry.
So either the word "other" was a mistake, or they intend for there to be one suit you MUST take. Anyone out there who is a rocket scientist (or not) want to take a stab at which one in the Farsight's Command Team of Eight is the mandatory minimum so you can choose up to another seven from the eight?
I ALREADY hear people who are saying since it does not state who the first is, you can take however many of whoever of them you want. The early read amongst our judges is that Farsight is mandatory to take any of them. Reasoned arguments otherwise? Thoughts?
We'll need to clarify these rules ASAP, because we stated we'd be using GW supplements as long as they were more than a month in advance, and available for ALL people (not just Apple users). This is the case here.
Fire away.
So what do we do with this? Here are the key points ...
First off - the Commander Team is a series of Independent Characters, inclusive of Farsight (8 total guys to choose from). These IC's are all pretty good ... the most interesting of which for most players probably being O'Vesa, who is an Independent Character Riptide. Yup, you read that right. Hope your gears are whirring.
That said, O'Vesa is 305 points. If you require a 165 point investment in Farsight in order to enable any of these guys, it's a very different book.
OH, and just as an aside, you can ally a Farsight list with a Tau list. Battle Bros.
So anyway ...
- When choosing a Farsight Enclaves Army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight's Commander Team
So far so good ... if you choose this army, you get access to the team.
- If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead.
So, if Farsight is taken, you can't take a Bodyguard for him, because he is PART of the "Farsight's Commander Team" (he's one of the 8 listed). Here's where it gets sticky.
- This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation Slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight.
This rule does NOT STATE [and do not "paraphrase" it as] "and consists of up to seven battlesuits chosen from the Eight." It states seven OTHER battlesuits. Seven other suits other than WHAT?
To take any of the referenced seven, you need one to begin with for them to be "other" than. That's the strict RAW. The stricted application of RAW would be that unless you can divine who the "first" is, from whom the additional seven can be Other than, you can't take the team at all, and it's a pointless entry.
So either the word "other" was a mistake, or they intend for there to be one suit you MUST take. Anyone out there who is a rocket scientist (or not) want to take a stab at which one in the Farsight's Command Team of Eight is the mandatory minimum so you can choose up to another seven from the eight?
I ALREADY hear people who are saying since it does not state who the first is, you can take however many of whoever of them you want. The early read amongst our judges is that Farsight is mandatory to take any of them. Reasoned arguments otherwise? Thoughts?
We'll need to clarify these rules ASAP, because we stated we'd be using GW supplements as long as they were more than a month in advance, and available for ALL people (not just Apple users). This is the case here.
Fire away.
Pass it over for this year.
ReplyDeleteThere is no way there are not going to be arguments over this and you know GW is not going to FAQ this in time...
It is the least problematic solution and you had not officially blessed it yet anyway.
other than farsight. farsight is one of the eight. He is required to unlock them, thus he is the first.
ReplyDeleteI don't see why people are in a fuss over this wording.
"The Eight" is simply not referring to the eight suits below, it is referring to an organization: The Eight. That being said, it talks about Farsight in the previous sentences, before stating that the Command Team is made up of seven of the 'other' suits listed below. It then repeats listing Farsight as a member of The Eight (which Farsight is!). The sentence was put in there to clarify that although Farsight is a member of the Eight, he must be taken as an HQ choice, and NOT as a member of the team (which would mean he wouldn't take up a force org, etc).
ReplyDeleteThe Team is also not inclusive to Farsight. Nowhere does it state you must have Farsight - only that if Farsight is taken, and the Team is taken as well, he cannot have his XV8 bodyguards.
The Team is also not inclusive to Farsight. Nowhere does it state you must have Farsight - only that if Farsight is taken, and the Team is taken as well, he cannot have his XV8 bodyguards.
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of this
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ReplyDeleteI don't see how this rule is ambiguous.
ReplyDeleteI don't think this is a mistake. Here's how I read it:
ReplyDelete"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves Army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight's Commander Team"
Okay, so you have a special Bodyguard team.
"If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead."
This is terribly worded but it seems to imply that not only is Farsight restricted to this but that you MUST take Farsight to use it. This goes hand in hand with the next part.
"This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation Slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight."
This is where I think it's clarified. The word "other" makes perfect sense when you look above - Farsight is one of "The Eight", an organisation. So, by the seven "other" battlesuits, it is saying you cannot duplicate Farsight. This again implies you NEED Farsight to take the team (after all, it is called Farsight's Commander Team).
So, reading it through as one using my interpretation (wording changes in square brackets for less ambiguity):
"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight’s Commander Team. If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight [is not allowed] take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead. This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven [] battlesuits [other than Farsight] chosen from the Eight."
I don't see how it can be read any other way and still make sense. You can't assume any commander has access - there is no permission given. You cannot take it as a standalone - the word "other" FORCES this as, by your argument, it is nonsensical to say otherwise. The only one with access, as per the second (terribly worded) sentence, is Farsight himself.
Myself, I think the biggest RAW issue you'll run into is the bit underneath: "A Farsight Enclaves army cannot not include Aun'Va or Commander Shadowsun". Cannot not? So I must take them? I think this issue is comparatively easy to fix otherwise.
Interestingly enough, "cannot not" has the same logical meaning as must have, and (here's the interesting part), not not A or B has the same meaning, logically, as must have both. Thus your HQ choices must always be Shadowsun and Aun'va!
DeleteFarsight is the first.
ReplyDeleteBLUF! The biggest question is can these commanders be taken without farsight?
DeleteAs in do you need to take the command team to access them.
DeleteThe way I read it. You can take any of the commanders. They are all independent characters on their own. Nothing says Farsight is needed to take them. Farsight just allows you to take all of them as a retinue.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteWay I reads it - U git deez guyz fer free. Coz it doesn't say you gotz to pay point fer dem.
ReplyDeleteSeriously - you guys are making a mountain out of molehill here. It's pretty damn clear.
1) If you take farsight, you get access to this special team.
2) You don't have to take the whole team.
3) the seven "other" battlesuits refer to the battlesuits in the team who are not Farsight. (I mean jeez, the paragraph is titled "Farsight's Commander Team, looking at this in context, you know any referal of "other battlesuits" is going to mean "battlesuits that are not farsight".)
4) They are a unit - as in a squad - as in 2 inch coherency.
5) Stop inventing rules ambiguities where they don't exist.
The only thing I believe you are not correct about is the coherency thing. They're all Independent Characters, by rule. So, that part isn't a requisite no matter how you read the rest.
DeleteWell, yeah, except that they are referred to as a 'unit' more than once. Meaning that they are a unit and all the things that go with it, like 2 inch coherency. Just being ICs doesn't mean they can freely move about- there are numerous examples of ICs that are purchased as part of a unit and cannot leave it, like nearly every squad leader (shas'uis, etc)
DeleteI also read it as a unit. One blob of kill everything. The paladins of tau...
DeleteThere are no IC's you can buy that can't leave a unit anymore. There are several characters that can be purchased for units but they don't have the IC special rule.
DeleteAnd IC's can form a unit with other IC's if they choose. But their rules allow them to leave when they want.
I thought that and the allied parts were the only well written parts of the supplement ruleswise.
that's true but why then does the author of this rule refer to them as a unit more than once? the word unit never refers to a set of unattached ICs but always to a squad, vehicle, lone IC or MC.
DeleteYou can make a unit composed of ICs, that does not mean they can never leave. In the Blood Angels Codex I could create a unit of Dante, A Chaplain, and 9 Sanguinary priests. While they stay as a unit they must maintain coherency, but I can split them all off whenever I choose to.
DeleteBut you can't buy them as a unit. This obviously is going to make a precedence I'm whatever is ruled.
DeleteI just don't know why they would refer to the Eight as a 'special unit' if they didn't mean that they are a unit. Now - it would be cool to have 8 independent characters running around causing havoc. Heck I mean, imagine the riptide IC joining units and soaking up all the fire while dishing out all the punishment.
DeleteBut alas, they weren't really clear about what they meant and we are stuck with this discussion. My guess is, players are going to have to take this into their own hands. NOVA will have to rule on it, casual players will need to agree before the game, etc.
RAW- Independent characters can leave and join units. I dont see anything here that prevents that from happening. Even if purchased as a unit no rule is stopping these independent characters from separating during the movement phase etc....
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ReplyDelete"We'll need to clarify these rules ASAP, because we stated we'd be using GW supplements as long as they were more than a month in advance, and available for ALL people (not just Apple users). This is the case here."
ReplyDeleteLegally, this supplement is only available to Apple users for three months. so therefore it isnt legal?
I dont have an apple and I have access to the Farsight enclave. Now the Eldar one is not accessible to me still. I think that one is ipad only. Thought it is only 2 pages of rules and I managed to acquire those.
DeleteJust because you acquired access to them doesnt mean that you have the copies legally. I'm kind of playing the devil's advocate, but the Farsight Enclave does violate the guidelines that Mike put out in the exact sentence he said they were legal. Many of us particularly in the DC area can't have copies of it for job-related reasons.
Delete@eric
DeleteIyanden is available in Print and via iBooks. So it's available to everyone.
Farsight Enclave is available to anyone with a computer/tablet/or relatively advanced phone. Both are legal for Nova as Mike has already said. That's not pirating, that's available for sale via digital and ibooks. So it doesn't violate the guidelines.
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ReplyDeleteI lose the argument as to how Farsight could have a "command team" if Farsight isn't there? For this special option the player takes Farsight in his crisis suit, and then has the option to add a command team, of up to 7 additional models, and these models can be equipped as you like in any of the OTHER available crisis suit types. They just can't mimic Farsight (as he is just selfish and too awesome to share.)
ReplyDelete