So here's the deal ... Ld9 is a 1/6 chance to fail.
Grey Hunters with a wolf guard in 5 man squads and razorbacks clock in under 200 points for the whole shebang, and are intended to be scoring and/or one-shot wonders very often ... they don't need to stay alive, endure much damage, or engage the enemy continuously.
Grey Knights aren't like this. If you're trying to just jam 5 man squads into razorbacks, you're playing the wrong codex. You can do this with purifiers, but stick 'em in rhinos instead of razorbacks, and still ... I don't think you're as good as you think it's going to be.
More "pure" GK armies are strong in that they very reliably can get to midfield, from where nobody can "run away" from them (I'm looking at you, internet heroes who think DE and Eldar and the like can easily play keep-away from the GKs' 24" primary range) with any material effectiveness. Once t here, though, they are at their best DISEMBARKED into cover, sometimes shrouded, and firing tons of S5 and S7 rending downfield at whatever they want, while daring an opponent to run in at them and have to deal with I10, S6 power weapons at a librarian's leisure, or tons of fire and then charges from S5 power weapons without a libby. It's a hairy proposition, letting a GK get to midfield on you.
Here's the problem, though - you're going to lose knights; you're going to lose a lot of them, in most games. They're just power armored marines. This is actually ok, b/c of how hideous a pair of psycannons are, and how hard it is to drill down into them when covered, often shrouded, and in a larger squad (5-man squads = you lose psycannons long before you want to, purifier lovers). What's not OK are leadership tests. You're not running cheapy little squads here, boys and girls ... you're running squads that are almost guaranteed to be in excess of 250 points each. While their firepower and combat capability (especially with proper buffs) is quite good for this cost, shit hits the fan when a canny opponent with a lot of MSU vehicles and such (especially ones with speed) swamps your army with models and you fail break tests, either due to repeated tank shocking or unlucky vs. 25% casualties (and again, you'll be losing knights, and taking 25% casualties, it'll happen a lot). Do you trust a single terminator save with the fate of an entire terminator squad? That's what you do when you trust a single Ld9 test with the fate of an entire PAGK squad.
ATSKNF is nice, sure, but if an opponent is smart enough to realize your weakness and pound it, he can get ird of squads and watch 'em roll off the board, and you won't be able to afford this the way a lot of more MSU'ed armies can.
Now, warning, I fail LD tests like it's my job, and I always take LD reliability and endurance. Problem is, the Grey Knights lack it. They really don't have much in the way of "I'm safe from breaking." What they have is Karamazov, and since GK are a midfield firepower dominance army, a single 12" aura is pretty effective at "my whole army re-rolls failed LD tests."
What are Karamazov's strengths?
He's an independent character now, which means he's joining squads (and looking really silly, towering over everyone)
Relentless twin-linked multi-melta (big deal, esp. for melta-less gk trying to deal with a raider or two without having to burn a ton of psycannons into it)
T5 means if you want to run a pallie death star, you gain incredible resilience against things like DE Lance Spam, where single wound lance hits can be repeatedly allocated to Karamazov's 4+ or 3+ cover save without fear of losing 100+ avg. value models to instant death.
Run with a Grand Master, and he's a S5 master crafted power weapon on an IC, which means you keep him away from their power weapons and eat several marines or whatever. Run with a Librarian, and he's up to a S7 monstrous creature basically ... pretty cool.
His squad chooses to pass/fails morale, which also means no fearless saves, b/c you still choose to pass or fail, it's not "automatic."
He's also the ONLY way to make GK deathstars unbreakable (paladins, GKT, whatever).
He has rad grenades, which ... I have no idea why, but, bonus!
Beyond anything else, he gives power armor spamming GK armies Leadership durability.
What are Karamazov's weaknesses?
He has no invulnerable save
He's not eternal
He can't ride in a transport
He has some other things good ish and bad ish, like his orbital, but I don't think you'll use it all that often, or any of them all that often. He's going to pop tanks with a 8/9 to hit multi-melta, he's going to kill basic anythings that get near him, and he's going to make your GK army a lot harder to get rid of.
Where am I going with Karamazov lists right now?
List Option #1
Karamazov - 200
Grand Master + Master Crafted Psycannon + Master Crafted Nemesis Force Sword - 230
10 x Grey Knight Terminators w/ 2 Psycannons - 450
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 280
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 280
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 280
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 280
2000
List Option #2
Karamazov - 200
Grand Master + MC Psycannon + Psychotroke - 240
5 x Paladins eclectically kitted, including brotherhood banner, dual master crafted psycannons, pair of master crafted hammers, master crafted falchions; total cost of - 440
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 280
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 280
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 280
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 280
2000
List Option #3
Karamazov - 200
Librarian + Shrouding, Quicksilver, Might, 4th power (undecided) - 170
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons - 240
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 280
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 280
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 280
10 x Grey Knights w/ Psybolt, 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 280
Psyfleman - 135
Psyfleman - 135
See if you can figure out exactly the point of the various changes in list; the Grand Master's best ability is not so much to make something scoring (IMO), as it is to get d3 power armored squads in rhinos up to midfield and smoked before the game starts, dramatically enhancing (even if you only roll a 1) your ability to start putting the hurt on gunlines or zippy opponents like DE.
There's a lot of silly good stuff in the book. I'm glad KrazyPantsov is going to actually see use again.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sold on him though. then again, I'm not convinced Castellan Crowe is garbage like people seem to say he is.
I've got my first actual playtest tonight. Going to try a Purifier list with 2 Psyflemen.
Interesting. I haven't had such a large problem w/the leadership stuff so I haven't really looked deeply into it. Based on the firepower potential in the list even MSU's I think are going to have a problem having enough vehicles to consistantly tank shock. From a balance perspective I like the last list best though for it's longer reaching fire support & libby that can shroud those adorable dreads.
ReplyDeleteInteresting article MVB. I assume the plan for Kazzy is to run him behind whatever Rhino wall you have so he get's a nice cover save? Reason I say this is he's a big model, but you could easily get 50% cover from behind a vehicle wall and STILL be able to fire that MM over the tops of the vehicles.
ReplyDeleteAs for the lists, I personally like #3, but that's also because I'm not a huge fan of Termies or Paladins. With that said, list 2 looks like you'd want to run Kazzy, the GM, and Pallies behind the rhino wall to ensure the 12" bubble affects the most possible, but to also give you plenty of wound allocation shenanigans.
The first list looks more like run Kazzy forward, Deep Strike the Termies with the GM...
Overall interesting ideas with the use of Kaz
Roland - he's an infantry model and an Independent Character, so he'll be attached to a unit. If his foot is obscured by a rock, he has cover.
ReplyDeleteMike - that last comment was something I meant to ask you but forgot actually - you agree with me a foot is sufficient for Cover then? Not merely a leg/torso/arm/head?
ReplyDeleteGood.
Suck it Floody and the ETC. :P
Regarding the article - very well thought out and explained, I will look into it when I begin testing, but it *looks* like I will agree completely.
That said, doing a dual-HQ list below 2k is...difficult...at best.
Captcha: Merser - an English bloke with a blog...
Interesting similarities in playstyle to certain Vanilla Marine lists - drive forward, pop smoke, prepare to shoot heavy weapons from top hatch. But Grey Knights bring a whole different toolbag to the party.
ReplyDeleteI haven't had an opportunity to deep dive into the new codex thus far, but I enjoyed reading this Mike.
Vs. Dark Eldar, as a GK player I wouldn't be worried about them "running away." I would be worried about nine Raiders with Shockprows and the -1 Ld for tank shocks (can't recall name) running my entire army off the board.
Purg, he'll be getting on foot to make use of those stormbolters. Obviously, within reason, but I'm assuming that'll generally be the plan.
ReplyDeleteSee Mike, I like the idea, and the 3rd list is similar to something I was messing with, however I like GKGM + Libby, a lot. If only Karamazov had Grand Strategy.
Gotta say, I'm not sure which is better. Strategy or Shrouding. Need to test the book. Agree on scouting being better than scoring however. Have you played against land raiders with the GK yet?
Before running Karamazov I'd want more games with just GK in, to see if the LD is such a problem.
Oh, and finally, how're you combat squadding (if at all)?
Leadership Checks is one of the reasons I think Purifiers have such a huge advantage over normal knights- Fearless means no worrying about your 250+ unit getting pinned or falling back randomly.
ReplyDeleteFearless also means not losing the entire unit automatically to a Sweeping Advance.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I've noticed. If a player rolls dice poorly, the ability to re-roll doesn't make one roll dice better. :D How many times do you find a re-roll only confirms the bad news?
Archo - generally speaking Marine Bunkers end up on foot also, just not until after your enemy has cracked their box.
ReplyDeleteSince for the first few turns you will be (presumably) shooting at mech targets, I would think that you would stay inside at first and allow your Psycannons to shoot out the hatch.
That wouldn't be the case in all instances, of course, but hopefully that logic makes sense.
@Benjamin - You can't lose marines to a sweeping advance, if they fail ld in combat and get "caught", they turn fearless, stay in combat and take no retreat saves. It's called And They Shall Know No Fear.
ReplyDelete@MVB - You keep talking about 3+ cover, but only in list 3 will you be able to get it, and you banking on a phsycic test to get, which much like you with your ld test, I fail like its my job, or failing that, get hooded, because being in mid field, means you're going to be in hood range.
The idea has merit, but I'm not sold on it. As everyone else has said, I suppose it would come down to some play testing and seeing how bad the ld tests can get.
Awesome lists Mike! I'm loving them all... can even play test using my Black Templars :)
ReplyDeleteMessanger
Wuestenfux: Interesting discussion. It seems that GK armies can be fielded with a plan, getting into midfield as early as possible and then taking on the enemy from there. For this, it appears that Rhinos are the better transports than Razorbacks. Moreover, large GK units are better than smaller ones as they are no longer fearless. Kara is a great force multiplier as is the GM and a Libby, which could justify taking two in larger pt games.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: How would you configure a 1500 pt army? Here in Germany we play the GT at this small pt level.
... and if you have annoying vehicular enemies, run a rhino up to an inch of it, pop smoke, and drop a Lance Orb. Strike on it (and any friends you can shuffle next to as well)!
ReplyDelete