All signs point to a 6/23 notice, and an accelerated 6/30 release right now.
The question then becomes, do we stick to our contemporary plan of going with 6th edition if there's 2 or more months for players to prepare?
Right now, we're learning toward yes, but can't make a firm commitment until we get closer in.
Why are we leaning for, why are we leaning against?
Pros and Cons for 6th Edition
Pros
- A certain number of people will be upset either way. There are going to be players who are irritated, including registered attendees, at us using 6th Edition. There will be just as many if not more who are irritated at us sticking with 5th Edition as it ages.
- 6th Edition will be 2 months old by the time the NOVA hits. In a sense, it's already a couple of months old. For better or worse, it's not quite the same as it releasing much much closer to the NOVA, where we'd be more of a swan song for 5th. Going with 6th makes the NOVA the freshest, and first meaningful/large 6th Edition 40k event.
- Our staff can and will be able to tackle the rules into a proper mission format and FAQ document with plenty of time to spare. I'm not actually worried about our ability to digest the new edition, and rapid respond to the things we'll have to do.
- Current information suggests the Force Organization Chart will remain as it is, without the amendment of Percentages a la Fantasy. This means peoples' current 2,000 point lists that they are planning on bringing will entirely or largely be just as legal (though naturally their performance is going to change). This prevents attendees from being REQUIRED to run around purchasing a TON of new stuff.
- Allies and other quirky things are generally being pointed at as addendum rules, or rules for Team Games.
- 40k GT spots will be remaining by the time 6th Edition hits. It seems by some feedback to be more likely a person would sign up for the new edition at that point, than for the old one. If we stick with 5th, a higher % of on the fence registrants will save their cashola for "NOVA '13." We'd like to stick to our ahead-of-last-year-pace and sell out the GT :)
- Terrain rules changes can be mitigated to a degree with a clearly written and delineated rules packet. Also, if for any reason our 1,100 pieces of terrain aren't sufficient with the new edition, we have available loaner resources in the area that amount to over another 600 pieces of terrain. In short, we'll be fine on that front.
- Aside from the Invitational, which will remain 5th no matter what, all other 40k events would be in one system ... Narrative, Trios, GT. If we stick with 5th for the GT, people playing in both the GT and Narrative would have to bring armies tuned to both, or at least remember the rules from both well, and we'd have to make a harder decision on the Trios.
Cons
- A certain number of people will be upset either way. There will be players who are upset at us using 5th Edition. There are also going to be players who are irritated at us if we use 6th Edition.
- Despite my confidence in myself and our staff, we still could get some things wrong.
- Rules questions will be much more frequent, which will cause more strain on our judges, and a greater need for judges. We have MORE TIME THAN EVER for our rounds this year, but all time is still limited to a degree.
- ... ?
There are more pros, and more cons. What I want now, is to hear what you the attendee and prospective attendee think. Do you really care THAT Much? I want to hear if you're AMBIVALENT also ... the ambivalent ones are an important opinion, and one that rarely shares itself (understandably).
PS, our registrations are up in June in all events, and I wanted to update you all on those (all percentages are rough):
40k GT is at 80% sold (256 slots)
40k Narrative is 40% sold (No cap, but based on 32 player anticipation)
40k Trios is 50% sold (No cap, but based on 48 player anticipation)
Flames of War is 40% sold (2 x 32 player events)
Warmachine/Hordes is 40% sold (doubled to 64 slots this year)
Fantasy is 40% sold (doubled to 64 slots this year)
Infinity is 25% sold (16 slots)
VIP Bags are 75% sold (50 total bags)
Basically you have a choice between being the first major tournament of 6th, or the last tournament of 5th. Frankly it would be much more interesting and enjoyable to see NOVA be the first example of 6th rather than the last gasp of a dead edition. Two months is more than enough time for people to become familiar and work out some initial ideas of how to play the game. With all the extra time you'll be able to handle rules disputes, and people will understand that it's a new edition and that nobody is perfect.
ReplyDeleteBesides I'm sick and tired of Grey Knights and Space Wolves.
Greetings,
ReplyDeleteThe pro's section seems more intelligent, logical and reasonable then the con's section.
Just a thought.
Courage and Honour
----Colonel Colm Corbec
I like the idea of 6th. I think the GT would be much more interesting with everyone on an equal footing including the judges. I also like the notion of the NOVA becoming the "Flagship" tournament for the new edition.
ReplyDelete-RGH
6th edition all the way. The Nova (from what I've gathered) tends to be a benchmark to weigh different armies and lists against each other. I think it would be great to see how some of the top players digest and interpret the new rule set so quickly after the release.
ReplyDeleteI don't find the idea of a "Swan Song" for a game that nobody plays anymore very compelling. If it ended up being 5th I just don't think there would be very much buzz at all. Part of the buzz of a tournament is thinking about its ramifications for FUTURE tournaments - what are people playing? DId anyone come up with any new twists? What's happening to the metagame? All these lines of interest are non-starters for a tournament using a previous edition's rules.
ReplyDeleteIf I hadn't already bought my plane ticket, hotel, & entrance fee for NOVA, I would right now be waiting to see if the event was going to be using 6th. If it was still using 5th, I wouldn't go. As it is, having already bought these things, I'll still go no matter what, but I'll be much less excited if it's a 5th edition tournament.
I'm right behind you on this. I'm going no matter what. Using 6th Ed. would only benefit the tournament both in the media and with players enjoying them selves more. There will be so much attention on Nova this year if they choose 6th Ed.
DeleteI think that part of being a competitive event is having a set of rules that people (and referees) know very well. The 5th edition may be on its way out, but it's what people know, and it's what people are best prepared to play.
ReplyDeleteRemember when the 5th edition landed? People's understanding of the game was very different, and it's been interesting to watch the learning curve over the past few years as people adapted. Stirring the pot is nice, but it leaves too much room for people to whine about luck and rules mis-interpretations when there's already been so much hash about terrain.
Changing to 6th edition also gives an unfair advantage to people that have, somehow or other, had early access to the rules, and have had more time to digest them. To avoid reiterating the point above, consider how long it might take for GW to release a FAQs for all of the existing army books, and the amount of effort required to familiarize staff, as well as attendees.
Maybe it's less 'exciting' to some people, but the 5th edition is a known quantity, and will remain the better known quantity until NOVA 2013. Let players focus more on painting and playing and less on adapting to new rules.
Completely agree. I know people that, even today, still haven't grasped 5th. I had a discussion just yesterday where a guy told me that Dreadnoughts have a 180-degree LOS.
DeleteI was literally agape.
If this event ran 6th, there is literally NO way you wouldn't have someone feeling stupid because of their inability to grasp rules seeing them humiliated by opponents proving them wrong.
You want everyone to have FUN Mike, and while 5th may be Less Fun, it at least shakes the near-certainty of some having No Fun.
I can also see this being a huge problem. Games have the potential to be dominated by rules discussions (and arguments) to the point that they may cease to be fun for many players. It's not just a matter of wasting time as the clock ticks down, but frittering away whatever enjoyment might have been had as people look up even the most basic tenets of the rules over, and over, and over again each game.
DeleteDespite the internet, 40k communities still tend to be organized in a very tribal fashion. We all have our local clubs which are made up of maybe a couple dozen people, maybe half of which are heavily invested in the game. When new rules are released (such as army books or, in this case, a new edition) there are always ambiguities that require interpretation. Clubs tend to handle these interpretations socially, eventually reaching a consensus about how it should be handled. The problem is that not all groups come to the same consensus and sometimes have wildly different interpretations of even basic rules. When different groups come together, their visions of how the game is to be played can often be completely incompatible. No one likes having the rug pulled out from under them at a big event that they may have spent months preparing for, but that's exactly the kind of situation that is being primed with a hasty switch to a new edition.
Judging by the rest of the comments here, it appears that my desire to stick with 5th for NOVA is a minority opinion. Unfortunately, it's one I feel strongly about and if the decision to go with 6th edition is made then I don't think I'll be attending. Due to the short notice, the weekend would merely be a warm-up for the next big tournament rather than the main event itself.
I think that last point is an excellent one - you run the very unfortunate risk of being little more than preparation for whichever event comes next in the main calender (BFS?)
DeleteWhile the attendees are unlikely to consider the event as such, the many, many more PROSPECTIVE attendees who don't go will - a number of them anyway. Especially when/if 40k's own tabloid decides to get involved...
My vote is also for 6th.
ReplyDeleteI already bought a ticket. But I have to say that if it stays 5th edition Ill probably pass and stay home. Im already sad that I have to remember 5th edition rules for 2 weeks in july for the ATC.... by end of August-September I will be 6th edition all the way.
ReplyDeleteExcellent comments overall so far; from Aaron Beeson, who could not comment from work, with his permission:
ReplyDelete"Sorry for emailing you, Would have posted online but work has blogs on read only mode.
I will gladly say that I am ambivalent towards the GT this year. I go to NOVA to have fun, I don't expect to place anywhere near the top brackets, but I always give it my all. I like the idea of staying with 5th, only because its what I know and I have a solid grasp on it. At the same time however, I feel that ever sense the Grey Knights codex released that 5th has become somewhat stale and less fun. Part of this may be flavor of the month armies, part may be I'm playing an old 4th ed codex. I look forward to 6th edition as a child looks forward to Xmas every year, I hope it will be awesome and help move the game to a better place, but as always there is that slight fear that I may get some coal this time. So while I look forward to what may be, I am also apprehensive of what it could be. Either way I will be at nova this year, and I'm sure it will be an awesome event no matter which path is chosen, I'm sure you and your staff will do the best that they can, and who cares if you or your judges make a mistake? Your only human. So either way my friends and I will be there, Just let us know what edition so we can get our list ready to play some 40k."
6th edition from me.
ReplyDeleteThere's more than the just rules at question here, though rest assured this is a GW product so there will be loopholes and exploits galore and you WILL be put in a thankless situation of having to interpret it since you probably won't even have a FAQ from GW by then. You're asking people to digest a ruleset immediately, adapt their play, adapt their lists, and then build and paint whatever changes they have to make? What about core game changes to terrain, a hot topic already? What about fundamental MISSION changes and how that is then translated to the NOVA format? What about random crap like psychic powers messing significantly with certain armies?
ReplyDeleteFrankly, I think two months is too tight a window and opens the door to exploits and shenanigans rather than skill. I would at the very least consider reaching out to the ticket holders (or past players) via poll or survey to get a community pulse. Comments are one thing, but most of us online are lunatics and a lot of GT players don't bother with the blogosphere.
As much as I would like to say "move on," it's a pretty big investment of time and money to snap to judgment without even seeing the book and weighing the impacts.
Let's be honest here:
ReplyDeleteA tournament right on the dawn of 6th will be a huge mess with players AND judges getting rules wrong, and is likely that it will get free drama. So, going all for 5th is the safe choice.
On the other hand, if the opinion in general is "I rahter deal with all that that keep playing 5th"....well, can't say much about it. Just want people to really know what they are getting into.
Normally I would say stick with 5th. But since 5th isn't fun anymore you might as well rol, the dice on 6th and see how it goes.
DeleteI'm traveling from north of Seattle, just shy of the Canadian border, to come play in the Nova Open. It's kind of a bucket list thing for me. I think 6th will provide the kind of atmosphere that I would like to play in, shake things up in a healthy way for the 40k side of the hobby. I vote for 6th.
ReplyDeleteAs an observer from across the pond, my preference would be 6th. Nova is seen as an exemplar for competative play, and I'd like to see the impacts of 6th sooner rather than later. Sure, they may be teething problems, but surely it's better to accelerate the process and go for a trial of fire than rinse and repeat 5th?
ReplyDeleteThe Old King is Dead. Long Live the King.
ReplyDeleteGrow a pair Hamlet, and go with 6th edition. Besides, who would choose to be last instead of first?
At this point, I will probably be unable to pull enough strings to make the trip to NOVA 2012 possible, but I would put in a lot more effort to make it happen if I were going to play 6th ed.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't it hold it against Mike to make the call for personal reasons either. The escalation of scale and rapport of the NOVA brand has probably exceeded every other GT over the part 2 years (not dinging Adepticon at all). Running the first really large scale event in 6th edition would give him valuable experience and feedback to possibly make NOVA 2013 the premier event of the year.
Either way, props to Mike for sticking it throughout the whole transition and all the added stress on top of organizing the event.
6th.
ReplyDeleteWith all respect to people who wish for the tournament to be in 5th edition, I think that there is another very good point to make.
ReplyDeleteThis is not some fluff tournament, where people win or lose in an artificial environment created by composition rules. This is the NOVA Open, and the best people in the country are going to it. People like Stelek, Dash of Pepper, Blackmoor, Sandwyrm, Spaguatryrine, Hulksmash and of course the Everchosen of Chaos himself.
I think with that sort of caliber of people going to the tournament, 2 months would be enough time to learn two or three new editions, not just one.
Cheers! :-)
---Colonel Colm Corbec
I vote 6th honestly. If I could I'd vote 6th for the Invitational too since that way I wouldn't have to remember two rule sets a day :)
ReplyDeleteHi
DeleteAs another invitational player - I second that sentiment.
Give us one ruleset.
Cheers,
Nate Stevens
6th Edition for me as well. I'm already looking forward to NOVA; however, to have the breath of fresh air of 6th Edition will be the icing on the cake.
ReplyDeleteMy vote goes towards 5th edition.
ReplyDeleteRemember when 5th edition landed and how it completely altered the very fundamentals of 40k? Vehicles went from trash to auto-include, everyone swapped their plasma for melta, etc. The same is going to happen when 6th edition comes out; consequently, you're going to have several hundred attendees with 5th edition armies that may or may not be competitively viable in 6th edition.
At the very least, attendees' armies will all require extensive modification in order to become optimized for the new rules. This probably includes buying, assembling, converting, and painting some, many, or even all new models. On top of that, they will need to not only learn the new edition, but also practice it extensively. A failure at any of these levels will make the 2012 NOVA Open irrelevant to competitive 40k and easily dismissed as a gathering of people who didn't have time to prepare for or even learn the game at which they are competing.
Will there be some people who are able to put in the time and many, many hours to potentially create and test all new armies under a new set of rules? Yes, but they will likely represent a very tiny minority of your players. Most will be playing more or less the same thing they were planning on bringing before the edition change. As someone who enjoys competitive 40k and sees NOVA as the premiere event in that respect, this completely tears down that image (at least for this year).
Frankly, if the June 30 release date is to be believed, the timing of the NOVA Open couldn't be better. There aren't any major competitive events following NOVA that will have the luxury of choosing between editions. Don't think of the tournament as being a swan song for 5th edition--think of it as having the final word, a word that says *these* are the people who truly mastered the various aspects of the best edition of the hobby to date.
Danny, won't the Invitational accomplish that goal?
Delete5th is old and tired, let it lay.
It partially accomplishes the goal, but does nothing to address that the main event will be a nonsensical competition between 5th edition armies using 6th edition rules. It does nothing but let people "compete" using the shiny new rules, but without the necessary tools to properly make use of them in a grand tournament context.
DeleteAt best, you'll have a bunch of ugly, half-painted armies hastily slapped together to satisfy the 3 color minimum and optimized in line with the first impressions of the new rules. At worst, you'll have everyone fielding their pretty 5th edition armies, completely eliminating any evaluative capacity that the event might have had. It won't tell us anything about 6th edition or even who is necessarily good at playing it. In all likelihood, it will simply tell us who can scrap together models together in the shortest period of time (or who got lucky with their existing armies in the 6th edition lottery).
Danny, in part you're correct. A big component of this orients around what an event is for the majority, and what an event is in terms of valuable post-event metrics.
DeleteThe more an edition matures, the greater your stability in tournaments and rules (though they are still often wrong in some capacity), and the more you can have fun in the blogosphere and elsewhere determining the impact of the metrics/rules.
That said, regardless of mission format and rules editions, good players tend to do well.
I'm *concerned* about the evaluative nature of the event, fairness, and the like, but not in the same way that an individual may be. I'm mostly concerned about the fun of our average attendees, and the fairness of the format. The former is where I get the most input here, the latter is in part within the command and control of myself and my judging staff.
I'm already considering that GW's released update-FAQ's will have to be printed into the guidebooks, along with possibly providing people our own versions of the Magic, er, Psychic Cards, etc. etc.
In part, unfortunately, we're in a wait and see mode. The people who claim they have had 6th edition for a while now do not as far as I can tell (you violate an NDA the moment you admit that you have it in the first place), and GW has been tight on the releases.
Not if the NDA belongs to a third party, you're protecting their (already broken) confidentiality...
DeleteDanny Internets has it nailed. Two months? How long does one of the top 40K players spend building and tuning a competitive list?
Delete1. Slapped together or less than GT quality lists. Personally, I'll 95% guarantee that I will be one of those with a "slapped together" list with models in black base coat with two other dabs of paint to make it a "three color standard". Decals and detail work? Fughedaboutit. Why? Because I don't see GW letting the currently fairly well balanced Black Templar codex + FAQ stand if any of the significant 6th Edition rumors pan out.
2. Monumental rules screw ups by judges and/or NOVA only house rules to span the gaps, in either case, an abortion instead of a realistic evaluation of 6th edition. Yes, there will be rules errors, there still are in FIFTH EDITION and it is has been out for years. So, do you prefer grumbling about playing the last 5th tournament by some to shrieks about how "Judge X cost me Y games because the idiot cannot read" or "...the idiot remained stuck in 5th Edition mode".
I'm sure you have competent, trained and well meaning staff on hand, but they are human.
3. Players reactions under time limits are going to be off, which will add to confusion and delays. Along with diluting any value for "evaluating" 6th Edition, well, except for a highlighting of what rules GW needs to addressed in the first FAQ.
So, do we want to have a well understood 5th Edition tournament or do we want to have some kind of madcap NOVA 2012 Kinda 6thish Edition tournament?
Remember, if you choose 6th, when is the cutoff date for new rules/FAQs? Six weeks was a cutoff for 6th originally, so how about anything else GW puts out that changes the way an army plays? What is the first day that players can expect to be secure in their lists without some 6th Edition change by GW borking their list.
Yes, yes, yes, the NOVA format is great and wonderful for letting players rise to their own level, but I'd prefer not to have a rush to 6th. If I end up 0-8 under 5th rules, then I got what I asked for. If by chance I end up 8-0 using 6th rules under these conditions, then, well...meh. I just got lucky in the scrum to grab the prize.
There's the knee-jerk obseravtion that most people on the "go 6th" camp pretty much decided to quit 40k until 6th (or forever) anyways.
ReplyDeleteIt's definitely a tough call, Mike, and I don't think anyone can blame you either way as there is no decision that will make everyone happy. But here's my take for what it's worth, as I think I probably fall into a slightly different category of gamer than some of the above commenters (i.e. the category that has a wife, young kids, demanding job, and unfortunately the daunting and time consuming task of moving in 6 weeks);
ReplyDeleteFirstly, I too am excited about 6th ed and can't wait to get my hands on the new rules. Not because I'm unhappy with 5th, but because for the first time in a long time I'll be getting in on the ground floor, so to speak, with a new rules set and can learn along with everyone else from the beginning and not feel like it's an uphill battle trying to catch up on rules that everyone else has already mastered/memorized. I think most gamers are looking forward to 6th on a similar level and will no doubt read thru and pour over the new rules not long after they are released (I know I will!). That's not what worries me. What I'm most concerned about is the harsh reality that I wont have much time to put those new rules into play before the GT. I'm not a super competitive player and genuinely have good time tossing dice casually with fellow gamers; I know I'll have a good time either way (I'll get to play more games of 40k that one weekend than I will all year). I just hope that if we're going with 6th for the GT that the rules are straightforward enough and don't create too many rules conundrums with outdated codexes -- I for one don't want to spend the better part of my games referencing the new rulebook or soliciting a judge to settle a rules conflict. But this all depends on what kind of impact 6th will have on the game, when it officially comes out, and what GW does to support it (will FAQs for all armies come shortly thereafter, etc.)
So I guess the short answer is, it depends, haha. Bottom line though, I trust the Nova crew and their ability to evaluate 6th when it officially drops and to make an informed decision whether or not it'll be good for Nova 2012. If it turns out to suck or is too convoluted to be digested in 8 weeks (or doesn't come out till late July/early Aug) then 5th is probably the safe bet. If 6th ends up being the new awesomesauce, or my particular armies gain huge buffs ;-) then bring it on!
I'm going to Nova one way or the other. I'll be playing in the 40k Narrative this year and I would like to see 6th ed rules for that. There is no reason to keep 5th ed around for the Narrative because it is not a competitive orientated tournament. You would have a more lax atmosphere, easier time working between players and judges. As for the other games, 5th ed would be safe but if 6th ed was used and it was a success, it would be a massive win for NOVA.
ReplyDeleteAs a competitive player grounded in a less than competitive environment I'll put in my 2 cents for people like me. If 6th drops on June 30th, and I still want to play 5th for the next 2 months chances are my practice games with be close to zero over those 2 months as everyone in my area makes the transition to 6th (I'm really the only person at my LGS that plays outside of my LGS.) At which point I am left with either don't play so I don't confuse myself with the new rules, or play 6th, which won't really be good playtesting/practice for NOVA, and I will then need to forget the 6th ed rules again at NOVA.
ReplyDeleteFor those that say that it is not enough time to adapt...really, if that is true is it not more or less true for everyone? Sure some people will be ahead of the curve, that is true now, some people spend way more time practicing and perfecting their army now, than others do. So to say that some people will be better off because we change rule sets is largely irrelevant, most people will be in the same boat, and those that are not will end up at the top. News flash only 1 guy wins best general, everyone else really is looking for a fun weekend of gaming. The only argument (given a June 30th release) that I can see for not moving to 6th ed, is if the NOVA staff do not feel that they can properly prepare. Otherwise, the top players that qualified for the invite can play 5th without changing if they so choose. While everyone else makes the natural transition to 6th.
"The only argument (given a June 30th release) that I can see for not moving to 6th ed, is if the NOVA staff do not feel that they can properly prepare."
DeleteEXCELLENT POINT!!
NOVA's "competitive" label will be challenged if you switch to 6th edition. No way around that, really. Only the really competitive people will be able to fully grasp all of the rules, adapt their army, and practice enough to make minimal mistakes, in that amount of time. The rest won't have time and thus will make the competition less so than if it stayed 5th ed. Also the rules themselves will be less known by all and thus more shady stuff will happen.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, the invitational is for the most competitive people, so the open doesn't have to be. So the open should switch to 6th to keep the excitement up and really showcase what players can think up in 2 months. I think if you have a solid plan, and announce it to the players ASAP, no one will be super annoyed. If they wanted a full on chance to be the best 5th edition player, they would have already found a way to get into the invitational.
For the record, this opinion comes from one who will not be attending the open due to travel for work.
I'll be there either way. You have put it out there that it may be 6th and that's great. How about waiting until the end of July to make a final decision. That gives a month to analyze the new rules and a month to get stuff ready if the decision to go 6th is made.
ReplyDeleteThe thing I love about NOVA is the clear communication of rules, terrain, missions, etc. It allows one to prepare, test, revise, and to have very realistic expectations going into the turney. For reference, I am a competitive but not elite player (bottom of second bracket last year).
If it goes 6th, much of the clarity into the event will be up in the air. Not the event itself but what to expect from others and consistent interpretations of the rules (no faq). I'm sure that I can tweak my army, as there are plenty of web sites can help users to 'optimize' their lists. However, it's the other 20 codices that will cause me headaches.
So a 6th edition tourney will be fun, a nice change, but really, it will be less of a competitive format for most players (I was in the second bracket last year) due to unfamiliarity with other new power builds. By this I mean if you don't know the rules or what to expect, it would foolish to assume that one can 'compete'.
6th Edition or not, I'm there, I love the challenge of competitive play, regardless of the rules of engagement. As with any other time I play my orks, I tell my opponents, keep your list, just tell me when I need to role a save. It's a controlled chaos for me playing the orks anyway, I know my codex in and out...along with core rules, but when it comes to other armies special rules...da green skins will just role forward.
ReplyDeleteIn Summary....go to have fun, stay for the beer, regardless of the rules it's going to be a great time.
I think it has to be 6th edition.
ReplyDeleteI know that, locally at least, no one is going to be playing 5th edition games starting from the moment 6th edition hits. So by the time the NOVA rolls around it will have been two months of playing 6th edition and essentially no 5th edition games. Personally I think going back to the 5th edition rules would be pretty annoying at that point, to say nothing of confusing.
Two months is too long to hold onto the old edition.
My only objection to 6th would be that I don't want to buy the new rulebook. I prefer to buy the starter box with the mini rulebook instead. If NOVA switched to 6th I would be forced to buy the expensive book to play as I've already purchased my ticket.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, 5th is old and moldy and needs to go so I choose the evil I don't know and vote for 6th.
-Bat Manuel
Every time I see your name I think of Bat Masterson.
DeleteStolen from "The Tick" live action series. Funny character.
Delete-Bat Manuel
I think the lack of playtesting in 5th leading up to the tournament is a great argument in favor of running it under 6th. Hate to say it but the world doesn't revolve entirely around the Nova open, and the world WILL be moving onto 6th edition the second it drops. For the naysayers, yes, you will probably want to run a different army for the Nova than you have been running for every tournament in 5th edition. But really, don't you want to change your army ANYWAY because everybody you know will want to play against you using the 6th edition rules beginning in July? Nova won't be CAUSING the tectonic shift that makes you want to change your army, Nova will simply be REACTING to it, or trying to pretend that it never happened.
ReplyDeleteThat's ... actually a pretty good point.
DeleteI'll second that too. Is a very compelling point.
DeleteWill add that I do find the argument about no longer being able to get any practice games in 5th ed. listed a few times now here to be very compelling for me as well.
ReplyDeleteOnce 6th hits, it's going to be all 6th all the time around here. I won't have another 5th ed. game until NoVA.
What is even more compelling for me then is that now I will also have to juggle two rule-sets, one in which I am not as familiar but have had a lot of practice in the preceding months, the other which I am familiar with now but will be rusty on by the time September rolls around.
If it was 30 days prior, I'd be voting 5th. 60 days is a long time...
Two months isn't enough time for some of you?
ReplyDeleteWould you prefer another year? Two? Five?
I'm sure Mike would bend over backward to make it happen if its what the community truly wants.
I, on the other hand, think you should suck it up and adapt. Two months isn't enough time to know EVERY loophole, no. But that's half the fun of a new edition.
Be a front-runner for 6th. Let the NOVA lead the way into the new edition.
ReplyDeleteRemember that two years ago, NOVA was the first event to use the new edition of WFB, and that seemed to have a positive response at the time.
I'm coming to watch since my army isnt finished but I want to see 6th. People gotta man up and learn new rules sometime.
ReplyDelete6th ed. It will reset the field and actually heighten competition. We'll see new builds and interesting interpretations of the new rules. Being a huge event with a large and vocal supporting community, the rules questions that will generated from Nova will be overwhelming, cohesive and, hopefully, drive GW to update right away with an FAQ.
ReplyDeleteIf 6th Ed get adopted, your judges are going to be the heroes of the day!
" hopefully, drive GW to update right away with an FAQ. " - perhaps you're new to GW games? ;)
DeleteResetting the field lessens competition, not heightens it - an older edition has had time for slightly inferior (to the peak) players to learn and for the lesser than them too. A great player who knows the game inside out will be less better than an average player who knows the game inside out than a great player vs an average player with a game they barely recognise.
Plus, as Mike said in the Randomness article - the highest level players play more frequently, and just MORE, disadvantaging the others further.
I hear you about GW updating their FAQs but it has been getting better.
DeleteI understand your point about lessening competition. Only the most skilled/practiced player will how to optimize their armies in 6th ed going into Nova. However, I still believe it will be a crazy, exciting tournament using a new rule-set. It could create an initial leveling effect to most codices. Probably wishful thinking but who knows at this point.
No one really knows how long 6th edition games are going to take at the 2,000 value. It could take 30 minutes longer, could be even shorter - who knows. But I'm willing to be this drastically changes between hobby groups across the country/world.
ReplyDeleteI think rules questions will exponentially increase... and try as you can, different judges will judge things different. You can try to keep some sort of central repository that they all have to memorize, but there will be mistake made MUCH more frequently in 6th than in 5th.
I think you should Market this as the 'last big 5th tournament'.
Lastly, players in the invitational (who will generally do very well in the Open itself), will be going from 1 system to another... which will be incredibly frustrating.
6th across the board. I'll have the book in my hand day one along with most of the other people that are serious about how they do in GTs. The funny thing about this I was watching a bunch of the 11th company videos from last year and there were still people not understanding even basic 5th edition rules...
ReplyDeleteWhatever you decide I'm with you, I'll see you at the end of August. Just let us know as soon as you decide to do it.
Mike,
ReplyDeleteI'm an attendee from last year and I'm going this year. If you go with 6th, I agree that it shouldn't be a big deal that I have to change my army, because I will have to do that anyway. My concern, however, is spending so much money on tickets, travel, and all the money it would take to update my army, only to then discover that the army I built isn't really up to snuff because I didn't have a good enough understanding of what works and what doesn't.
I mean, I can playtest like crazy over the next two months, but I only have a few friends that play in my area. Most are not anywhere near the quality of players I'll face at NOVA. Also, the quality of information coming out concerning strategy over the next two months will likely be shaky at best, especially considering many of the community might want to keep silent as to not let potential competitors in on their tech.
If this was a Magic tournament or something like that, it wouldn't be a big deal - I can trade or sell that stuff away. But a 40k army is a much bigger commitment that I'm likely to be stuck with. I just don't want my NOVA experience in 2012 to be summed up by future me as, "For as much money that I spent and as much time as I committed, I really wish I would have known __________!"
I'm coming either way, Mike. I had too much fun last year not to. I would just stress that you really think the decision through, regardless of your instincts or gut reaction. Of course, I know you will!
Good luck, and see you in August!
OK. I have probably hit my limit on comments so will stop after this one... but... Josh McKinney's comments above are exactly what would make me MOST excited to play in a 6th edition tournament. If nobody (including, gasp "the internet") has yet come to a consensus on what the "best strategies" are, that would make for a very exciting tournament. It's only a game guys. Make your best guess. In the end we'll see who guessed best and we'll have a good time playing the games while we find out!
ReplyDeleteLaugh out loud, good post.
Delete--anoymous Colm Corbec again
I should probably also stop. :P
DeleteThat, for me, is a huge turn off. I'm not the best player in the world- I'm better than average, sure, but I wouldn't be confident that I would have the new system down-pat, and I know better players almost certainly would have a better grasp.
Overall, I think if I were going but not committed by ticket-buying, I would pass if it changed to 6th.
Matt while I agree that the lack of 'accepted strategies' and what not would make for an exciting tournament, Josh's sentiment about the cost, both time and money hits home for me and my play group. I don't know where you are traveling from, but for myself and friends, we are coming from California. 5 of us came last year and more are considering coming this year, but for me I was really looking to NOVA as a last hurrah of 5th. Maybe I wanted this because I am not as fed up with 5th as others obviously are on here. All that being said, I will have to decide whether it is worth it for me to spend about $500 for travel alone to basically play test 6th edition.
DeleteI think you'll find if we choose to host sixth, it will be because the game does not stand as one where after two months all we'd have going on is a mass playtest.
DeleteTournament people tend to be enthusiasts, not just players. They will already have the rules, been playing the rules, and probably be familiar with the rules. I don't really see why a discussion of rules sets is that relevant here, really.
ReplyDeleteThe one drawback, and I don't see anyone here bringing it up, would be for people with a lot of work in painting and prepping minis. If their armies have to substantially change because of rules changes it could hurt them. They would probably be a pretty severe minority, though.
Don't be the last gasp of 5th. Be the first breath of 6th edition wind, sez I.
Also, send out one of those quickie surveys to the people who have already signed up and ask if they mind going to 6th. Since the tickets were sold under the premise of this being 5th, they are entitled to a say.
ReplyDeleteJoe, thanks for the inputs, and, you've got mail!
DeleteI haven't signed up for the NOVA yet this year. The reason why is because I haven't played any GW products for the last 4 months until I know what 6'th edition brings. Frankly for me 6'th is going to determine if I continue to play anything GW related at all, or if I'll just quit and start playing another system like warmachine or kings of war.
ReplyDeleteIf I like 6'th edition I'll play in the NOVA, regardless if the NOVA is 5'th or 6'th. If I hate 6'th then I might play in the NOVA if it's 5'th as a last hurrah, but it would be realy hard to maintain motivation if GW kills the game.
I recommend 6th edition.
ReplyDeleteNOVA has a unique opportunity to influence the 40k community. The community watches how NOVA puts together a fair tournament. NOVA can provide an example of how other tournaments can offer fair missions and balanced games for 6th edition. Set an example. Be a leader and a pioneer.
Secondly, we all have to learn 6th edition sooner or later. NOVA gives us a reason to learn it sooner.
-Lance
I vote for 6th. I think there is enough time, baring some kind of insanity in the 6th edition rules. The determining factor for me is that I do not want to have to keep two rulesets in my head. Also, it does not hurt that 6th edition sounds like it will make older non marine armies more competitive. That just amps up the fun if there are more villains present!
ReplyDelete".....it will make older non marine armies more competitive."
ReplyDeleteBWAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahah.
That's funny. Get real, this is GW.
Nova Open,
ReplyDeleteMy vote is for the NOVA to stay ahead of the curve, a trendsetter, as opposed to mired around a dead horse. I am attending and playing in multiple events one way or the other, however this is a strong 6th ed. vote from this two year attendee. Thanks...
Let me be the voice for a moment of the "average" player. One of the common themes I've seen here is that the assumption is that everyone will have been playing 6th ed for at least two months before the NOVA; this couldn't be further from the truth. Most of the players that we've been discussing are not average; they are above average, ie Hulk, Tony, Stelek, etc.
ReplyDeleteAs an average player myself, I don't have $75 to drop on the new book as soon as it hits shelves. Nor do I have the time to spend three days at the local store reading and memorizing the new book. I'll get it when I can afford it and not before.
Regarding playing time, again as the "average" player, I'm lucky to get a game or two in once a month. Between work and the family thing, I just don't have the time and neither do most "average" players.
Of course let's not forget the armies. Most of us do not have four or five armies just laying around that we can throw together and build a list around the new rules. I don't have $200 to drop on new models in an effort to get an army together before the NOVA and if I did, I wouldn't have the time to paint them.
Let's consider the rule changes. I hit about a tournament a month and a shocking amount of people still don't have a firm grasp on all of the 5th ed rules, let alone learning a whole new book in two months. Also consider the people working the NOVA; if a bad call were to determine a game when we were down to the elite 8, imagine the nerd-rage that would generate for weeks and/or months to come.
The bottom line I'm sensing from this thread is that we should run 6th ed because a minority of the players want to, when in reality the majority of the players that will be attending (including myself) just won't be ready for 6th. Why put together a tournament for forty people just so they can crush the other 216 players just because the other 216 just didn't have the resources to properly prepare for 6th ed?
I'll be there regardless, but my vote is for 5th.
I actually find this surprising. I'm in the same boat as you but I'm site all the players in my area will be moving on and I'd rather not stay behind for several months, or try to keep 2 systems straight in my head? I'm just curious as to how long you would need to make the transition? 3 mo.? 6 mo.? More? In all honesty the average player is not in it to win it a nova anyway, so things like overhauling an army are not necessary.
DeleteUltimately, a survey of the ticket holders is the only fair way to do this.
ReplyDeleteThat said, it *needs* to be 6th. Carpe diem. Evolve or die. You can wax poetic about a swan song or a final tally of the mavens of 5th, but the truth is that if this ends up being a 5th edition tournament nobody in the world outside of the 40 participants will care one whit about the play and the results. It will all be an irrelevant footnote in the dusty index pages of a dead game.
To the anon who posted directly before me -- while I respect your viewpoint, I don't consider you to be an average gamer, since many of your behaviours deviate from the expected norms.
I'd say that 2 months into the new edition most "average players" will either own, have pirated, have borrowed, or have osmosed the new ruleset sufficiently to make them comfortable playing it.
They will also own multiple armies or a single army larger than a single armylist, that can slot in new components as rules evolve.
They probably get to play more than 1-2 games a month (although, personally, I feel your pain on this one).
I haven't played a game since the last NOVA as I am primarily a painter (and business has me traveling quite a bit). 6th edition is exciting because new stuff might be on the tables. I attend NOVA primarily to meet new people and get some fun games in with beautiful armies. If army composition changes, then I get to see some new stuff on the table. It is a given that battles will feel different with the new rules, which is also a bonus.
ReplyDelete40k is not that complex at its core. I suspect that most people going to the NOVA Open would have read the 6th book, and internalized it simply because it is exciting to have new rules. The day the book hits I expect every internet celebrity to spew tactical prononciations. The cool thing is that for a while at least, there will not be a consensus online for what breaks the game. We actually get to go to a tournament where alternatives builds will be expected!
Checklist For NOVA 2012 Transition To 6th:
ReplyDelete1. MVB & Co. must set a drop dead date for a decision ASAP on whether or not to transition. This includes identifying and writing house rules.
2. Officially lower the painting standards for players who have to significantly rebuild their lists or even change armies.
3. Give an official drop dead date when GW and the NOVA staff can no longer introduce rules changes that may further alter lists.
4. Have a plan for if players start blowing off the games after Friday night instead of being filler peons for the catered to top tables.
For the first and third, I'd say one week, two at most, giving six to seven weeks to try and finalize a list and gather stuff. Unlike most people with this complaint, I actually have a "Friendly" FLGS. There are plenty of people who will play 5th for any practice games I might need.
Without the second, then unless two of three rumors break a certain way, I can probably expect to be stuck pushing little plastic men around a table and rolling dice. I'm not even going to try to build and paint a virtually new list if the rumors break the wrong way.
Your show, your choice Mike. I've already got too much invested not to go, so you got me once. I've got a couple of people I want to meet anyway. I've even got people in the area I could visit. Heck there are some sights I haven't seen yet in the area. So think real hard about the fourth one because I plan on having fun for the money I spent, even if I have to go elsewhere and spend more money to do so.
Sour grapes? Whining? Maybe, but I've just gone from sad I missed last year and excited about going this year to ... meh.
Algesan,
DeleteI take your concerns seriously, and we'll be acting very quickly to address.
As far as players blowing things off / etc., that's not something that has happened in NOVA's to date, and I don't heavily anticipate it here. It's helped heavily by our Bracketing system as well.
That's to say, the NOVA doesn't cater to top tables. A tiny fraction of our prize support / etc. happens there, and you have a lot to compete for even if you lose 4 straight; you'll also be doing so with people who are in the exact same boat, wherever you wind up.
None of the decisions we're working through are being made lightly, or will be made lightly - that's a lot of the reason we opened up the floor to player input here. I'd additionally love to chat further with you via something like gchat, if you feel like venting / sharing / talking through / etc.
mvbrandt@gmail.com if desired
- Mike
As im playing in the Invitational and the GT I would love for both tournaments to be 6th edition so i can focus on one rule system rather than bouncing between 5th and 6th. Also I would hate to have to try and pull up a 5th Edition FAQ for my army when GW replaces it with 6th Edition FAQ. As much as I try I cant remember every single little thing in the 5th FAQ's. Also like what has been voiced already is that after the 30th im not gonna get any practice 5th Edition Games. Other than that i look forward to drinking and gaming lol.
ReplyDeleteI vote 6th
ReplyDeleteI feel that much like the ATC (5th edition event after the 6th edition release) the event has very little value and bragging rights when the winners, who are all 5th edition champions when the community has been playing for 2 months already in 6th.....think about it 2 months! we are not learning a new game....just tweeking our current knowledge. I think 2 months is more than enough time.