Alright, as promised earlier today, here is the re-write of the CSM Codex by unit. At the top of the doc is a quick intro on what you should be going for in reading and playtesting it.
While I haven't firmly nailed it down, let's keep it looking like this - the people who build and playtest the largest # of lists and provide the strongest feedback are the people who are most likely to win a free weekend badge or two to next year's NOVA Open.
So, take a good hard look. Keep this in mind - any unit you think is "underpowered" or worthless, I'll strongly consider that input "in a vacuum." Any unit you think is "overpowered," please build it into a list in a capacity that highlights this, in comparison to other strong lists from legitimate codices. That's to say - don't tell me that Kharn's +2A special rule for the unit he's attached to is OP unless you can show me a list with that in application that's provably OP :)
Read the pdf, and begin to feedback here and now ... all material feedback will be considered for updates and revisions.
Keep in mind the goals here, they're listed in the pdf ;)
WITHOUT FURTHER ADIEU, HERE IT IS JUST CLICK THE BIG ALL CAPS
At first glance, my impression is 'job well done'. I have a friend that would love to test these out for ya. I think we can get some games in this weekend.
ReplyDeleteGreat list with some original ideas.
ReplyDeleteAs a long-time Noise Marine player, I’ve always been tempted to play them as an ‘aggressive midfield’ type list which uses a combination of massed sonic blasters and sirens to launch ‘defensive assaults’ against de-meched troops. Sadly with the current +5 cost for the sonic blaster and another +15 for the siren, units big enough to do this would be prohibitively expensive (8 with SB, champ, siren and NO tank runs 230ish). I think your fix would fit them into that role nicely, and because they still lack melta/plasma or FNP, few could argue that they are too powerful. (The same 8 man unit with the new rules runs 175 w/o a rhino, and if you add a cult rhino pushes 220, which is a good buy, but not 'cheap'...)
Add in Fast rhinos and LRs, as well as the buffs you’ve given the termies, and I think you’d have a really unique build that can quickly deploy onto forward objectives and then force your opponent to either endure torrents of blaster fire or to race towards decent assault troops. I’d play them.
My two cents anyway.
It's not bad at all, but I don't see any real thought given to basic CSM's or Bikers to make them a good choice. It is nice that you lowered the price of the Bikes.
ReplyDeleteI tried but just don't see any reason to take basic CSM's over the Cult troops which is the current state of the Chaos Codex.
Basic CSM's need to either gain something like Stubborn or get a points break to make them viable. Especially in the current whirlpool of 15 point Grey Hunters.
You've definitely made all of the Cult troops viable choices with flavorful upgrades and options. A definite improvement.
Don't forget Raptors are a cult of their own, and not assault marines like a you'd see in a loyalist army. I don't see them ditching their jump packs for Rhinos. Besides it totally goes against the fluff of the unit.
I like what you did with the Defiler by upping its AV, although I don't see the need to lower the points.
-Jim
The basic marines can be mega buffed with a lot of abilities for cheap at present - Abaddon lists they get re-rolled morale for free, Huron lists they get re-rollable morale AND ATSKNF if you build them right, and their weapons loadouts doubled, so units of 5 can have lasplas sitting back for cheap (or similar loadout), yatta yatta.
ReplyDeleteThat's not to say they can't be worked in a different way, but you may want to try some of the list build potentials in there involving them, and involving them in conjunction with some cult marines / filling the role of "other" cult marines in order to save you points / etc.
That said - it's worth a re-look; there's no attachment to any given ruling at this point.
Duly noted and good point on the Raptors ... although there may be some deference to the notion that not all "Raptors" are members of the Raptor Cult, as it were - maybe a work through can be found there to up them.
I dont see the next CSM codex going in this direction but it's interesting to say the least. My gut feeling is the legion aspect of the codex will make a strong comeback over renegades. Renegades from a background POV for the basis of the codex was epic fail. I would like to see T5 Oblits come back again. Seriously with T5 TWC sporting stormshields how can anyone say that T5 Oblits are OTT ?
ReplyDeleteG
I see what you are saying about the Character buffs, but I still think a unit should be good on its own and a buff is just an added gravy.
ReplyDeleteI'll have to take another look at Huron he sounds like a pretty good HQ now.
The Raptors swapping JP's for Rhinos could easily be a Huron thing as he is the newest renegade commander.
Oh yeah, I agree with BBF, T5 Obilts would be golden. Then only the most powerful of weapons could insta-kill them; Eternal Warrior should be saved for HQ's.
Jim
Couple of questions before I really dive into a list idea that I've been having and that you made ridiculously better :)
ReplyDelete1. Do Tzeentch Termies still have their tl-bolters? Or is their only weapon the staff?
2. When you say an aspiring champion is a psyker following the rules from the sorcerer entry do you mean that a slaanesh marked champion could take lash?
And now a couple of comments. This is just off the cuff and I'll be willing to try this out (i.e. I'm going to be looking for a game on Vassal with this) but there are a few things that standout to me:
1. 30pts to make people destroy your landraider twice. And all that does is make the landraider cost as much as a marine one. Not sold on this.
2. Like all the character rules except for Kharn's impaled on a LR. GW is moving away from rules like this and I think it's a good idea to do so.
3. The auto-hit, auto-pass lash from a daemon prince is pretty hardcore. Maybe make him roll to hit like bolt does? I don't know but it's pretty gnarly.
4. Like the DP's and generic character changes. Love the idea of the psychic champs.
5. I'd probably up the cost of the slaanesh termies by 5-10pts and give them sonic blasters. First reason is that they are cult marines and the second one is then they are the excellent horde control while khorne are the cc killers, nurgle is the MC killers/survivors, and tzeetch is your tank/vehicle killers. Rolls for all coven while you can still get cheap termicide which can be tuned to do any of the above just not as well. More jack of all trades.
6. Just change the possessed to slightly less buff abilities but the chance to choose before deployment. For the cost this would make more sense and is less confusing that the boon thing.
7. Good changes to cult. Nurgle are holders now not auto-choices like plaguebearers are for daemons. Noise Marines are costed better and are your horde control/fire fight specialists w/an excellent change to Blastmasters if you take 10 of them. Assault vehicles for khorne, i like it. Not sold on the Tzeetch changes totally. I think you should leave things like old choppa rules out. I'd say make them psychic bolts directed by the champ. Basically sternguard (for around 28pts), require sorceror who comes with free power. Just a thought. Not sure how I'd fix them. I like the cult rhinos.
8. Do something with raptors :)
9. Not 100% on the rending rule. Do you wound no matter what on a 6? or do you just ignore armor if you wound on a 6? If it's the first the slaanesh are fine. If it's the second make them s2.
10. I would make it choose at army selection which type of daemons. Because anything else smacks of the ability to tailor and for 13pts nothing should be able to tailor that well.
Those were my initial thoughts and overall opinions on it. I like it a lot actually. I'd just stay away from the to much out there rules or styles that have been abandoned. I'm willing to throw down some time with someone using this thing. I've got some slaanesh/khorne/renegade force ideas a bubblin off this.
Look, much <3 mike but this is a bit too much. First thing I thought of after looking at this (after "oh hey, rhino rush is back") was this:
ReplyDeleteHQ
Demon prince of Tzeentch 200
Troops
10 Chaos Space Marines 150
+Autocannon 10
+Lascannon 20
+2 Flamers 10
+Rhino 35
10 Chaos Space Marines 150
+Autocannon 10
+Lascannon 20
+2 Flamers 10
+Rhino 35
+Combi-Melta 10
10 Chaos Space Marines 150
+Autocannon 10
+Lascannon 20
+2 Flamers 10
+Rhino 35
+Combi-Melta 10
10 Chaos Space Marines 150
+Autocannon 10
+Lascannon 20
+2 Flamers 10
+Rhino 35
+Combi-Melta 10
10 Chaos Space Marines 150
+Autocannon 10
+Lascannon 20
+2 Flamers 10
+Rhino 35
+Combi-Melta 10
Heavy Support
6 Havocs 165
+4 Missile Launchers 40
6 Havocs 165
+4 Missile Launchers 40
6 Havocs 165
+4 Missile Launchers 40
Sit on objectives and plink away. It's difficult to dislodge 10 marines who each have extra attacks, especially when you have to take as much fire as you do to even get to them. Chaos marines are interesting, in that they used to assault better than loyalists but were typically outshot by them. With you're new rules, they can do both, at a very nice price to boot.
Here's some potential issues at first glance:
1.) No changes to deamon weapons? WTH?
2.) Be aware that by RAW, units that are near an embarked squad of plauge marines are still affected by "cloud of flies".
3.) Berserkers do need a slight buff, but giving them a 20" charge range is almost certainly going in the wrong direction. What do Orks do, exactly, against a world eaters army? Just die?
4.) Plague marines absolutely do NOT need to be tougher. I can see you're trying to move them away from melee and into a "resilient shooting" category, but cloud of flies way more than compensates for the loss of a bolt pistol.
5.) Nothing summoned lesser daemons get is good enough to really make them viable combat troops. There's really little reason not to take the undivided ones and use them for objective claiming like always. (Or nurgle, actually, is probably even better.)
I'm hardly going to go through everything, but those really stick out.
Honestly, it looks like you tried to make each choice in the codex competitive vs the other choices, but didn't look at how things compare to other armies choices. While the 'dex will necessarily be balanced against itself, I don't think it will be against other armies, performing adequately against some and completely trashing others.
That's the trick of designing for a game like this: you need to balance it against everyone else. If chaos can build lists that outshoot everyone, outassault everyone, are fast enough to catch everyone, and are points-efficient to boot, why take any other army?
I'm not going to sit here and build a list for every problem I think is in this 'dex, especially since some of them can't be illustrated with just building a list. You seem like a very smart guy, Mike, so why don't you play some games with this dex before putting it up and asking for balance advice? I think you need a better base before you leap into widespread playtesting.
Woah nelly! Playtesting aplenty done so far on this, fwiw - and the list you posted fits in well enough with the current meta. Keep an eyeball on the tone, keep it constructive; there's a goal here, which does not = "create a brand new codex." Let's take baby steps and leaps where required, and keep it constructive.
ReplyDeleteCommentary for Hulk on a couple things (i.e. Raiders need +20 points for possessed in order to purchase one of the "marks"), but I'm tired!
Clarification, since my super awesome blog has no edit and I dislike the delete/repost.
ReplyDeleteBisquick - read back through the lead-in posts; this isn't about rebalancing 40k at present (and this isn't about creating useable homebrew rules either). While we've playtested against "real world" codices to success among our routine group, the goal is instead to demonstrate a capacity to internally balance a dex, along a functional series of goals and purposes. So the primary comparison here is 2k chaos list vs 2k chaos list, with variation in the build and stylings; if it's "impossible," no matter what we do there'll always be just one list or at least a handful built around a few key choices spammed that's "duh" better than anything else the dex can pull off. Keep that goal in mind, before thinking that we're trying to rewrite the game here - we're not.
Without amendment to, posting on, comparison of all codices against each other, and without possibly even rules changes to 40k base, you can't do a "perfect" job of it off one codex v1; so - take a good note from some of the other posts made, and stick with the functionality. Also, be prepared for pushback - the list you posted is plenty shooty, but plenty vulnerable to a variety of things as well in the current codex meta, and IMO to other builds within the dex; however, it does demo a much improved value to the CSM choice ... but perhaps could be further delved into in order to identify errors in retooling, to tweak off - and that's the goal. We're starting off with INTERNAL dex balance, not ... rebalancing all of 40k.
Take your time Mike. Like I said I really like the thing overall. Those were just some concerns/questions/and thoughts based on what I saw. I like to think I'm pretty good at disecting codexes but I realize they take play testing. I like to throw out initial thoughts/ideas and then build on them with army lists and games.
ReplyDeleteOh and my bad on missing the possessed part in that landraider selection. Still 270 for a LR that needs to die twice is pretty hot. Still not sold on it but it's definitely better than for 250 :)
Ah, when I read that you wanted each unit to be competitive within the dex and against other choices in the same FOC slot, I thought you meant in relation to other armies as well... I simply misread it.
ReplyDeleteI apologize for my tone, rereading it I am quite a bastard. That was not my intention, I only wanted to provide constructive criticism. Again, I apologize.
The dex makes a lot more sense now that I realize it's only meant to be played against itself. Actually, that makes a lot of the problems I had with it disappear. Also, I'm not really comfortable trying to point out differences at this point given that restriction- I don't think there's any way to tell until I actually play with it.
It is an ambitious project and I wish you luck. Also, it's nice seeing Chaos be interesting again. =)
Biscuit,
ReplyDeleteWell written reply; as the first was, if somewhat different tone-wise.
I'd love your continued input, if you're willing to continue to give it in w/e way you can - you clearly have an interest in the subject, and the brain to back it up.
As cool as it would have been to rebalance all of 40k on the first blog post, not so much :) ... the working goal here would probably be to do another codex after this one, and both internally balance it and balance them against each other, while retaining a different flair and feel to each.
I'm not certain if this really falls into the stated goals, since this a cross-codex problem, but the Spell Reflection rule for Ahriman would be sort of a pain to deal with on a purely practical level. If you don't have intimate knowledge of all of the other psychic powers out there this is going to introduce a lot of borrowing the other guy's book and reading rules to see what a given power really does and whether or not you want to cast it. It will slow things down a fair amount, I suspect.
ReplyDeleteAgain, if we are only talking hot chaos-on-chaos action that is not a problem, since you should be familiar with everything in your book, but from an overall design philosophy you might want to stay away from heavily involving elements of other codices like that.
That's a good point; the rationale was only using ones they've already themselves cast - hence, the power was just put into use, and the opponent has it in front of him, so it theoretically minimizes confusion.
ReplyDeleteBut, worth seeing in action, once we get a lil further. Good input :)
If it was 'may choose to immediately cast the power' I think it would stay manageable, but adding it to the power list available for the rest of the game could get unwieldy. Playing against Tyranids, for example, by turn 3 you could easily have added Paroxysm, Catalyst, Onslaught, and Hypnotic Gaze to your list of available powers. You'd have to have a pretty good sense for what all those powers did to make proper use of them as the game goes on.
ReplyDelete@Ben&Mike- A better way to do it might just be to give Ahriman access to all the Chaos powers, even those from other gods to represent his vast knowledge and experience.
ReplyDelete@Mike-Ah, cool. In that case, there are some thematic elements you should probably address:
1.) Kharn is, in no sense of the term, a "team player". Even his story in the codex is about him killing his own men, so it's a bit weird that he gives a buff to his unit. I do think Kharn needs a slight buff, but I think you've gone in the wrong direction. Kharn is much more thematically appropriate being a solo murder master. Instead of giving his squad +2 attacks, you could either add attacks to him, or do something like "When no retreat wounds caused to either side in assaults Kharn participates in; neither side may take armor saves against these wounds." To represent Kharn either butchering the enemy, or his own men for failure. In addition, "Impaled by a Land Raider" can be easily represented by "Eternal Warrior" and avoids adding a special rule.
2.)Lucuis' "add kill point" rule is nice thematically, but doesn't address the fact that he's still not a good buy, as he still is overcosted for what he brings to the field. It would be thematically appropriate, and much better, if he had a rule to move enemy independent characters into base-to-base with him and have him gain "Perferred Enemy" against independent characters. He is, after all, a master duelist. In addition, I've never understood why he has a power sword instead of a daemon weapon.
3.)Speaking of Daemon weapons... =). What's up with them? My suggestion would be to take away the whole "on a 1 you hurt yourself and don't get to attack", or at least the "don't get to attack" part. In addition, it would be good if they all provided +1 strength as well, just being a power weapon does NOT cut it, especially as they cost 40 points per. You might do something like this:
Khorn- +1 strength, +2d6 attacks, you never hit on worse than a 3+.
Nurgle- +1 strength, poisoned 2+, Enemy must take a toughness test or have their WS and BS reduced to 1 for one turn.
Slaanesh- +1 strength, +1 initiative, causes instant death.
Tzeentch- +1 strength, successful invulnerable saves made against this weapon must be rerolled, acts as a psychic hood.
4.) Cult marines. I see what you're trying to do with cult marines, to fit them into more precise roles. I think that's a good idea. However, I also think that you may want to revise some of those roles.
-Berserkers are obviously good at melee. No problems there. I don't really like the rhino option, I think it might be a bit much. (What do Nurgle armies do against Khorn armies?) Berserkers problem isn't that they don't have a 20" charge, it's that they're incapable of busting tanks and transports and getting to the juicy bits. Some kind of melta pistol options would be a much better balancer than a longer charge range. In addition, once upon a time, my friends and I played them incorrectly and thought they had rending. It was a sad day when we found they didn't. Rending doesn't make the unit unstoppable, but it does help berserkers take their rightful place as best melee unit in the game.
-Noise Marines are the primary ranged attackers. They seem fine to me too right now.
-Plague marines. I see you wanted them to be more resilient at ranged, and less potent in melee. I don't think that that is really a useful fix, as it encourages players to sit back with their PM even more than they do now. In addition, I know it's only Choas v Chaos right now, but if you ever want to play some other armies, there are a few that Cloud of Flies (CoF) royally screws. Instead of making them ranged attackers who sit on objectives and never move, why not run with the resiliency thing and make them good frontline bunker-busters? Take away CoF, give them a heavy weapon, (MM or PC) relentless and their melee weapon back.-Thousand Sons are the dumb unit that really doesn't work in the current dex, due to their specific role and inherent inflexibility. Something that always, always bugged me was that their big buff from their sorcerer god of trickery is... they ignore armor with their bolters. Really? You have a very cool opportunity here by abandoning that silly line of thinking entirely. Why not make thousand sons a buff/debuff unit? A CoF ability would be much more appropriate for a unit like TS. Instead of having their bolters better at piercing armor, have them debuff the enemy squad. (IE lower stats temporarily, or make them count as in rough terrain, etc.) It much more... Tzeentch-y and makes the unit valuable in every situation. Oh, and some actual special/heavy options would be good.
ReplyDeleteOnce upon a time, a buddy and I came up with a lot of ideas for rebalancing the chaos codex. Here are some, not really as suggestions, but more just for consideration:
Vehicles:
Khorn-Rhinos count as fast vehicles. Khornite tanks (vindicator and predator) may reroll failed rolls to wound. Khornite land raiders inflict 2d6+3 S6 hits on any unit it tank shocks.
Nurgle-Rhinos and tanks ignore crew stunned/shaken results. Nurgle Land Raiders lower the toughness of all enemy units within 6" by 1.
Slaanesh-Moral checks taken when a unit is tank shocked by a Slaanesh rhino are taken at -2. All shooting attacks from Slaanesh tanks force pinning checks. Moral checks taken when a unit is tank shocked by a Slaanesh Land Raider are taken at -2, and in addition, if the test is failed the Chaos player may decide whether the unit flees or becomes pinned.
Tzeentch-Rhinos have a 5+ invulnerable save. Successful invulnerable saves taken against wounds caused by tanks must be re-rolled. Tzeentch Land Raiders ignore cover saves, and in addition successful invulnerable saves taken against wounds caused by the land raider must be re-rolled.
Wow, that ended up being a lot longer than I expected. =P Also, note that there are a lot of things I really do like in the dex, I'm just not commenting on them. =) Cool deal, and I'm interested to see what happens with it. Oh, and it looks like I'll be playing game with it soon.
In the future, should playtesting comments/criticisms be posted here or should they be emailed to you?
Sadly the list gets broken up and taken apart by any kind of long range intensive list that has enough durable combat to tie it down or gank it when it gets close ...
ReplyDeleteFor example ...
Fabius Bile - 160
3 x Chaos Spawn - 60
3 x Chaos Spawn - 60
3 x Chaos Spawn - 60
3 x 5 Raptors w/ 2 Meltaguns, Rhino - 110
3 x 5 Raptors w/ 2 Meltaguns, Rhino - 110
3 x 5 Raptors w/ 2 Meltaguns, Rhino - 110
10 x Noise Marines w/ 2 Blastmasters - 240
10 x Noise Marines w/ 2 Blastmasters - 240
10 x Noise Marines w/ 2 Blastmasters - 240
5 x CSM w/ ML, Plasgun, Rhino - 135
5 x CSM w/ ML, Plasgun, Rhino - 135
5 x Havocs w/ 4 ML - 115
5 x Havocs w/ 4 ML - 115
5 x Havocs w/ 4 ML - 115
Noise Marines can always ride in the raptor or CSM rhinos if they need to, otherwise can put down absurd torrents of fire from a stationary position; Fabius joins one of the Spawn trios (if lucky, whichever gets rending attacks) to control it and provide a unit with T5W3 FNP and 6++/cover if needed/4+ FNP that can eat things that get close, or realistically just sit there with larger units ... oh, and the 9 spawn cost a total of 180 points due to Fabius in list.
Outbreaking of Timmah's and my convo on this on gchat - the codex seems to be accomplishing the task (even before changes to be made off great feedback) of being difficult to ID and build a "best of" list from in any kind of realistic way; that's to say, the various choices seem to be competing well w/ each other.
ReplyDeleteListhammering ftw on this - posting lists you build that you think are strong.
I like it; well done. I've had CSM as a side army for a little bit and have, like many others, been very frustrated with the overall lack of options. It's not that it's WEAK on its face, it's that it's so restrictive and generic that it becomes weak through lack of flexibility. A codex such as this would go a long way towards restoring flexibility and would be much more in-line with recent codexes such as BA, SW, IG, and DE.
ReplyDeleteI personally think the Nurgle DP is pretty weak sauce compared to the others. Only 3 attacks at I4 is pretty mediocre, especially when it doesn't have Warptime. With FNP and T6, it doesn't fear missiles *as much*, but begins to fear Power Fists more and more...
ReplyDeleteThe other Princes would almost always be more 'worth it' than the Nurgle one, IMO. He either needs more, or needs to be less points.
Otherwise, the stuff looks good, at first glance. I wish most codices (codexes?) were like this one, making most units viable. I'm actually not 100% sure what you're trying to accomplish- it's a fun mental exercise, but if anything it has only made me more frustrated with GW, and sad that there is no real 'unfrustrating' future to look forward to.
Gets me all hopeful that this would be picked up by GW, haha.
ReplyDeleteI love how there are so many great choices at the HQ level, and then again at the troop level with the cult marines.
This kind of possibility leads to being able to create fluffy armies that appeal to the builder, and can still play competitively.
I'm not sure if this goes outside of the FOC-FOC balance, but the one issue I did note, and I think someone else mentioned it also, was the Sorc. If every aspiring champion becomes a psyker, then you can potentially have upwards of 8+ lashers in one army. The potential to have that kind of power over enemy movement seems broken.
It's powerful, but we've been playtesting it - it's extremely expensive, and you end up with a bunch of tiny squads. Also, once we expand the balance game to dexes with psy defense (like Runes of Warding), such a list becomes a rock that insta-gibs when it goes up against Paper ...
ReplyDeleteBut it's a good observation.
to Xaereth's point - the next step is revising based upon feedback to v2, and then balancing out the Eldar dex (that's the next one we're working with, as it is so very thematically different / opposed to the way Chaos plays) both internally to itself, AND to this chaos dex ... and then of course step 3 is updating the eldar to v2, adn the chaos further to v2.1 as needed.
At that point, the mental exercise can go a variety of different ways, depending on reception and interest. At the extremes? Nothing, or a mini-"comp" tournament utilizing the set of codices that have been internally and externally-within-themselves rebalanced. Realistically? We get whoever is willing to playtest, record results, write up extensive feedback and opinion, and then use the lessons learned in a productive way ... and the sky's the limit on what that would be (letters and data to GW, leaping points for independent game design, etc.).