So this is more a discussion point; this list is built to be tricky and flexible ... from how you reserve and what you reserve, to where the characters go.
There is nothing keypoint around which the list is built ... the banner for instance is completely expendable (and can of course reserve, arrive, turbo over to wherever salvos are needed).
Through combat squad usage, reserve usage, and obviously decent play, this list (while not a finished product) solves for most/all threats out there.
Or does it? Thoughts and inputs welcome, but here's where I'd start w/ Ravenwing
Sammael on Corvex - 200
Librarian w/ Bike, Auspex - 90 (Warlord, more often than not, b/c I'd rather a shot at the other traits than what Sammy has)
Primaris Psyker - 70
Ravenwing Command Squad w/ Bolterbanner - 185
Ravenwing Command Squad - 120
10 x Tactical Marines w/ Heavy Bolter - 150
6 x Ravenwing Bikers w/ 2 Meltaguns - 181
6 x Ravenwing Bikers w/ 2 Meltaguns - 181
6 x Ravenwing Bikers w/ 2 Meltaguns - 181
6 x Ravenwing Bikers w/ 2 Meltaguns - 181
6 x Ravenwing Bikers w/ 2 Meltaguns - 181
Platoon Command Squad - 30
Infantry Squad - 50
Infantry Squad - 50
You can only have one Ravenwing Command Squad per the codex.
ReplyDeleteBut since Ravenwing Command Squads are basically the same thing as Black Knights and for almost the same price point you should be able to swap it out no problem.
Think about a grenade launcher for them as well, i think the Rad/Stasis grenades are going to be huge for assaults.
"For each HQ choice in your army that is mounted on a bike (or Sammael, but not including other Ravenwing Command Squads) you may include a Ravenwing Command Squad. These selections [plural] do not use up a Force Organization Slot."
DeleteBecause you can put Techmarines on bikes, you can actually have up to FOUR Ravenwing Command Squads.
Your right my bad, i was looking at the only one Company banner per army. Now i have more options for my Ravenwing list, thanks!
ReplyDeleteSure! Thanks for calling me on it ... benefitted both of us ... I made sure I had the rule right (I don't always, we all screw up sometimes), and you got to see it. Win Win.
DeleteI agree, hitting with stasis grenades is huge! I'd make sure both command squads have one.
ReplyDeleteI'd be tempted to drop one bike squad, and add in a vendetta. Heldrakes are going to tear this list up.
Heldrakes kill, at most, 3 bikers ... unless you are placing very poorly. They'll have to touch all 3 bikers in a target unit, so unless you're all jammed up ... it's actually quite hard to layer over more than just 3 models. You suck it up, and then combine prescience, meltaguns, and rear-armor plasma shots to clear heldrakes. Combat squads does a lot to minimize what they do, and the 3-hit doesn't actually clear squads anyway (S6 vs T5 on 3 hits averages a survivor who then scores late-game as needed, or bites overwatches).
DeleteNote, you can also use alpha or reserves to focus on everything but the heldrakes, space well, and deal w/ the cas
DeleteI'm really bummed that DW took such a hit, but it turns out that I have 30 bikers nicely painted and ready to go. I still think I like the green tide better, but this is nice.
ReplyDeleteI want black knights who aren't in the command squads though.
Tweaked version of this list that I quite like is:
ReplyDeleteRemove heavy bolter
Remove primaris psyker
Add company command squad w/ astropath
I want some mortars on those guard squads, or a manticore or a vendetta. Whaaaaa.
ReplyDeleteAlso, you don't want an astropath.
Q: Do modifiers that apply to such things as Reserve rolls, apply to
units from an allied detachment? (p124)
A: No.
Whoops! Went looking at the wrong FAQ docs :)
DeleteMike im assuming the primaris is a small key element here for giving a boost to the tac squad ? I was wondering if it wouldnt be better to add 3 bolter scout squads that could scout forward and take advantage of the banner ?
ReplyDeleteor possibly go sniper and use them as rear long range objective holders ?
Definitely do not prefer snipers / bolter scouts. This list isn't about the banner at all ... and often the banner won't do much for you. Even in lists where you build it around the banner, it can be relatively easily killed, and you don't want to have a bunch of much-more-fragile/less-capable scouts as your troops contingent afterward.
Delete$.02
Seems too gimicy to me, I'm afraid. 36 Twin linked bolters, 9 normal, 20 Lasguns, 10 melta and a couple heavy weapons? you won't have enough firepower to deal with even the most model-light lists. You certainly won't be mopping up in combat with your squads of 3, Your melta guns (assuming one per 3 man squad) will be wasted whilst you deal with infantry, and vice versa for your boltguns whilst you're targetting vehicles. With so little shooting, I don't think thats a luxury you can take.
ReplyDeleteDespite speed, I don't see much going for the army. Ok its tough, but with so few bodies that advantage is almost cancelled out. There is little fire power, littler combat potential, non existant flyer defence/offence, and nothing other than Melta to deal with vehicles.
Sorry, but I just don't see how this list is a threat. I still think Vanilla marines do better bike lists than the DA's!
See you're missing a key element here, the banner of destruction means those 31 TL Bolters (neither Sammael nor the black knights in the command squads have bolters. He has a twin linked storm bolter and a plasma cannon, they have plasma talons which are 18 inch TL plasma guns) are salvo 4 at 24 inches after moving 12 inches. So you easily threaten half the board.
ReplyDeleteLets go Mathhammer!
That's 131 bolter shots per turn and gets 110.2 hits or 55.1 wounds against marines (18 dead per turn) or 73 wounds against guard (73 dead unless they have a cover save in which case 48 dead with 5+, 61 dead with 6+ since the librarian's auspex would probably reduce the cover save). That's all before you shoot the 12 TL plasma shots. And you can even hide in combat if you need to thanks to hit and run.
6 double melta squads or 12 single melta shooters should handle any vehicle heavy lists, and the bolters do the rest.
Oh hey and they scout or outflank, so that fire is probably coming in unmolested on turn 1 (you go first) or some part of 2/3 (you go second).
Vaden gets a cookie.
DeleteUntil you're banner gets hit turn one by a Ap3 barrage weapon and the entire selling point of the army dissapears. Plus, you're going to have either 1 or 2 three man squads in range of the banner, not an entire army. Any more and you'll be so bunched up you'll be dead turn two if they bring any template/blast weapons.
DeleteIt the army NEEDS that banner alive, surely you need to invest more points in its surviability? A darkshroud or something, because its not particularly difficult to kill one marine biker, particularly when he's in a 3 man unit.
Rau, if you're going 2nd, why is your banner on the board?
DeleteThe list enables very rapid fire hammering of key portions of an opponent's line, from an army that can survive return fire in hilarious fashion due to the nature of combat squads.
You're largely guaranteed a turn of high volume fire, thanks to the speed of bikes and use of reserves, + the 24" range. It's also very easy to get each squad w/in 6" of the one banner ... not only is the base of the banner model fairly large, so are the bases of each subsequent squad; stretching into a 13/14-ish inch diameter circle is actually pretty easy.
Any suggestions for a good starting point for Librarian on Bike (or even Chaplain on Bike) conversions? Would the Dark Vengeance Librarian be good for this?
ReplyDeleteYeah I am not sold on the banner it is in too fragile of a unit which you have to add a bunch of characters to to make more hardy (thus diminishing the characters) plus if you are to use it effectively you will have to clump up your bikers to make it more effective. Bikes are best at being able to redeploy rapidly, being stuck clumping together will also mitigate this. Your 131 bolter shots a turn is all well and good but that is assuming everyone is in range of the banner and in double tap range. Also if you are that close the reprisal may be very harsh.
ReplyDeleteAgain, the point of the banner is simply to accelerate the fire once / at a key time, leveraging reserves when going 2nd. This is not a Salvo army, built around getting lots of salvo shots off for an extended period (building that sort of list is folly IMO anyway, and also not best done using ravenwing).
DeleteAlso, per what Ed already replied, the banner makes the bolters into SALVO 2/4. This means on Relentless bikers, you have a 24" bolter range with 4 shots AT that range (or closer). You don't have to be very close at all.
swanson
ReplyDeleteDont forget that you wont need to clump up as much as you think. The RW command banner squad should be utilizing its turbo move "after" the squads nearest it benefited from the banner, to get into range of other units who can now get the banner rule.
You create a pretty large banner range with the ability to turbo.
Plus now that fragile squad that everyone wants to kill has a 3++
also you dont need to get into 12 inch rapid fire range. The guns are now "salvo" so you get 4 relentless shots at 24" range.
ReplyDeleteyeah. It's Shmexy.
ReplyDeleteHi MVB,
ReplyDeleteI took the time to post this reply elsewhere - I would love to know where you see this list going, tactics-wise, as at the moment I ain't feeling it!!!
Two questions about that list - what are the IG for? Are they just the Emperor's version of Grots in this list?
I'm also concerned about the anti-tank and anti-flyer in this list. Currently (at least here in the UK), Necrons, Daemons and Flying Circus 'nids are real thorns at tournaments. What does this list have to counter those?
Sure, the bolter shots will do a number on Wraiths/screamers/flamers - that's how I use mine! However, the command squad is extremely brittle (even with Sammael in it for extra wounds) and that leaves you with little in the way of assault or high strength shooting. There is not enough there to take on two of these units unless they stray right into the guns of the entire army, and even then they won't be able to kill everything before they are assaulted or out-shot.
If the plan is to jam the enemy early on with the RW, overwhelming them with bolter fire, then I think that the firepower it has needs more support to really be effective and the command squad needs more ablative wounds to get it there.
Also, I cannot figure out why the Dark Shroud is not the first addition to this type of list, where in your previous foot-list you had two.
80pts for a 2+ cover save on the command squad is worth it, which Sammael can also give to a troops unit if needed (through passing on Skilled Rider). It doesn't need an Asscan, all it is doing is boosting to give itself and as many around it as possible a +1 Jink save.
I can see that guard, buffing the tac squad with the Primaris and basic guard units in reserve, is a nice idea - but I think that RW is fragile enough without units that don't contribute anything, i.e. a platoon of guardsman with flashlights.
My two cents, but right now this isn't jumping out at me as a great choice.
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