OK, updated based upon feedback, further playtest, etc.
Version 2
Continue to offer constructive input and commentary, changes are in red
Next step in the series is to continue to revise the above, and then to internally rebalance another dex AND keep it balanced toward and unique enough from the CSM rebalance.
The counts-as dead Lucius rule pretty much guarantees his appearance in tournament lists as an anti-deathstar. All he has to do is survive long enough to be killed by the IC/single model to garner a value way past his points. There needs to be a "common sense" check on these - how would you feel to have your game's outcome swing on VPs awarded because your opponent purposely reserved and late-game suicided Lucius? That's beardy cheese in my humble opinion. As a general rule, abilities should impact gameplay mechanics - not scoring mechanics.
ReplyDeleteWhile a good point, keep it centered on internal codex balancing for the *moment* ... which means pending the release of the eldar "studydex," the only things his ability affects are Greater Demons, Demon Princes, etc.
ReplyDeletePonder whether it's easy to abuse, or simply something an opponent has to be concerned about. NOT bad points, though, by you - esp. if the attempt was to balance this against things like, oh, Mephiston.
It also only works on IC's and Mephiston or single-model MC units.
So, here's a rough draft for a list. I believe I still have points left to fill though.
ReplyDeleteHere's
Lash Sorcerer: 125 pts.
Nurgle Dreadnought, TL Autocannon: 150 pts
Nurgle Dreadnought, TL Autocannon: 150 pts
Nurgle Dreadnought, TL Autocannon: 150 pts
Min Strength 1k Sons: 200 pts
-Rhino w/ Havoc: 50 pts
Min Strength 1k Sons: 200 pts
-Rhino w/ Havoc: 50 pts
Min Strength 1k Sons: 200 pts
-Rhino w/ Havoc: 50 pts
Defiler: 130 pts
Defiler: 130 pts
Defiler: 130 pts
I should still have leftover points, but now you get to ask "So how do I do melta Ordnance?"
I like it. Emperor's Children dreadnought should absolutely have a Doomsiren, Blastmaster, etc.
ReplyDeleteUnderstand the internal/moment aspect. I just have pretty strong feelings about win/win rules that are one-sided. All the opponent has to do is get Lucius into base contact and assault the IC/MC to "win". If he loses the combat and dies - he wins. If he kills the IC - he wins. IIRC, a pretty fair percentage of the games at NOVA came down to tight margins. Whether internally or against other codexes, this is a 5-15% shift in VPs that would occur normally for one side or the other through combat - except in this case it always goes one direction, with a partial offset if you're lucky. Generally speaking, any list that includes Lucius has a better chance of that 5-15% being in their favor.
ReplyDelete"how would you feel to have your game's outcome swing on VPs awarded because your opponent purposely reserved and late-game suicided Lucius? That's beardy cheese in my humble opinion."
ReplyDeleteI'd feel that I deserved the loss for being unable to prevent such an obvious tactic, of course.
OK, Feedback ...
ReplyDeleteMagic - your list is illegal. 1ksons are a 0-1 choice unless you select Ahriman.
Once you do, for another 100 points over what you're paying now, you've got a legal list at 1690 points, but extremely fragile troops that are the backbone of ensuring your firepower is solid.
Still - the point here should be this: You build a list you think is cool, powerful, thematic, whatever, and unless you're just willfully "stupid" with the upgrades and gadgets you stick on things, every unit and every combo has a sensible basis to it as a list, rendering the game down to skill, tactics, luck, and fun ... instead of "oh he brought a power list I guess I lose."
Skarboy - good points; v2.1 I guess when we get there ...
Ghostin - I feel you, I also feel TKE's reply; if you expose a key big expensive (more than 160 point) MC or IC to a non-fleet, foot Independent Character in assault, yeah - you're going to suffer for it. That said, not saying I don't see your point; let's give it some play, see what happens. Frankly, let's see if people even take him :) ... if they don't consider it in light of other characters, he needs reworking.
I personally think Lucius is hysterical. He's a single model and not all THAT fragile. Plus, he has to actually get in base to base with the model that could "kill" him or get shot by that character to die. While this can happen often, it can also be a total pain to get at a character what seriously does not WANT to be gotten at. More likely is that he'll just get shot to death a lot by troopers.
ReplyDeleteI'd be more worried about Lucius as a fireship than anything else. Just make sure the fireship doesn't ram you. it's just like the rest of 40K, balancing what you want to happen versus frustrating what the other guy wants to happen.
Well, he's not necessarily without fleet - he could hitch a ride in a Khornate Land Raider. Still, you're spending a lot of points for a gimmick that only works if the enemy model who killed him survived the whole battle. I have a feeling that most players don't want Mephiston to live any longer than he has to.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a fan of the Drop Pod option for Chaos Dreads - seems out of place if he's the only one who gets it. I'd either remove it entirely or just add the option to deep strike (via teleport or whatever) as a purchasable option.
Oh, and Juggler, Melta Ordance would have you roll two dice, choose the highest, then roll another die and add the two together.
ReplyDeleteI may just rule in 2.1 that Pyrokinetics doesn't work for blast and template weaponry.
ReplyDeleteAny thought about making Pyrokinetics grant AP d3 weapons instead of a straight up AP 1?
ReplyDeleteI'm diggin' this update. I am happy to see the Stubborn suggestion make it in for the basic CSM squads.
ReplyDeleteIt makes them a viable option compared to their Cult Marine brethren.
The rest of the changes look good.
-Jim
Pyrokinetics is not AP1, it's just Melta.
ReplyDelete"Pyrokinetics is not AP1, it's just Melta."
ReplyDeleteHa, that's what I get for attempt to comprehend this just after waking up. Funky, and I like it. I could actually find a reason to shoot with a Land Raider!
Mike, I was looking at your comments over on YTTH and noticed that you said:
ReplyDelete"Hence while there are plenty of fearless things in the dex, the non-fearless marine equivs (chosen, csm, unmarked terms, etc.) are all stubborn. High LD, but they don’t die for no damned reason."
So my question is, do non-cult units all come with Stubborn? I ask because the only place in the PDF I see Stubborn listed is under the CSM entry.
Cheers,
Jim
Newest revision not up yet, but yes.
ReplyDeleteAhh, Gotcha!
ReplyDeleteWhy are Thousand Sons 0-1? As it stands you can make a cult army list for everything except Tzeentch, which seems a bit odd.
ReplyDeleteAbout possessed: Do you still roll on the table at the start of the game or replace it with what you have here?
ReplyDelete