tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post7986164942549484689..comments2024-03-17T01:39:05.808-07:00Comments on Whiskey & 40k: First Turn Purifier Charging ShenanigansMike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-80760392525799544822011-10-06T15:19:59.130-07:002011-10-06T15:19:59.130-07:00Lets try this again. Long comment, and it didn...Lets try this again. Long comment, and it didn't post the first time.<br /><br />@King: I figured in a rules discussion about vehicle movement, people would know where the rules are... but lets go through them then.<br /><br />The main problem that people do not understand is Pivoting *is* considered movement. There is simply an exception given to it for the shooting phase.<br /><br />BRB pg 57: "Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however immobilised vehicles may not even pivot)."<br /><br />Now - if you only read the first half of the sentence and stop there you might be excused in thinking that pivots are free. Maybe. But the problem in doing that is that if you read the entire sentence it becomes clear what it is refering to. If you "pivot alone" then you count as stationary. Lets see what that means.<br /><br />BRB pg 58: "Vehicles that remained stationary may fire all of their weapons (remember that pivoting on the spot does not count as moving)."<br /><br />So if you only pivot on the spot, you count as stationary when you get to the firing phase. You still count as moving though - as you can see referenced in Transports (BRB pg 66 and 67): "If the vehicle moved before its passengers got aboard, it may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot)." and "If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that Movement phase."<br /><br /><br />And to comment on the illegality of pivoting, then measuring your movement from the new position of the vehicle - lets consult the movement rules on BRB pg 11. "Once a unit has completed all of its movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one, and so on, until the player has moved all of the units he wishes to move." and "Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit." and "You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit." We can also check out the diagram on page 12. Under vehicle movement (pg 56) it states: "Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore...)."<br /><br />So for vehicles, you measure from the hull to determine how far they can move. That we agree on. You *can* pivot alone, and count as being stationary (in the firing and assault phases). But you can not then go and continue moving that vehicle because it breaks the rules for movement on Page 11 - you are going back and moving the unit for a second time that Movement Phase. The unit *must* complete its entire move in one complete action. Since pivoting is *part* of the vehicle's movement, you always measure from the original position of the vehicle - not after any pivoting.<br /><br />Which means if you pivot the vehicle, then start measuring the distance you move - you are cheating. As per the diagram on page 12 - you are giving yourself extra distance.<br /><br />If you go by exactly the rules as written - the proper process is:<br /><br />1) Before touching the vehicle at all, measure from any point on the hull out the distance your vehicle wants to move. Mark that point.<br />2) Pick the vehicle up and place it back down with 100% of its hull positioned so that none of the hull travelled farther than that reference point.<br /><br />Those two steps adhere to all the rules written about vehicle movement. They also solve the issues of "gaining distance" because of turning. Nowhere does it state you must completely measure out each little movement forwards and backwards for each inch the vehicle moves. In 5th Edition they simplified many different things about the rules... why wouldn't they simplify this section too?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-89647745046601446112011-10-04T17:41:15.344-07:002011-10-04T17:41:15.344-07:00Au contraire Mike. If we're not being so all-...Au contraire Mike. If we're not being so all-encompassing linguistically, then I can't see how you can justify your Combat Squads nerf.<br /><br />FWIW - I agree, but I can see Biscuits' point.TheKing Elessarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04981821487098781957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-40137833706736350312011-10-04T15:09:36.412-07:002011-10-04T15:09:36.412-07:00I'm not looking to spark any hostility, Biscui...I'm not looking to spark any hostility, Biscuit. I disagree, b/c there's no writing of the particular FAQ answer that includes an explanation of where the emphasis on the writing is, if spoken aloud. It's simply poor writing, b/c it can be read in multiple fashions.<br /><br />The fact is, it doesn't say "Can units pass Scouts onto transports." It says "Can units pass Scouts onto any transports." The use of the word "any" is superfluous unless following the "version" of RAW I'm espousing.<br /><br />So, let's go back again to first in time and FAQ to follow ...<br /><br />Rule is written, states Scouts may be passed onto dedicated transports.<br /><br />Question follows, Can Scouts be passed on to any transport?<br /><br />Answer follows, no.<br /><br />There's no actual contradiction or issue here.Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-14882008791928041062011-10-04T12:32:21.008-07:002011-10-04T12:32:21.008-07:00If the FAQ said that, I would agree that the inter...If the FAQ said that, I would agree that the interpretation, silly as it is, is RAW. Move 11.99", but not 12".<br /><br />This really seems like a pick-and-choose-the-rules-you-want tactic, but given how vague the rules of this game are I really don't want to argue it. Fuck the shitty GW FAQ's anyway, do it if you want.<br /><br />The idea that this only "clarifies" in the way you read it is totally RAI, not RAW, and it's not your place to tell me how to read the FAQ absent the designers context. But I don't really care that much, and I hate RAI v RAW arguments, so this will be my last post on it.Sir Biscuithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16583831153212326925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-73337744096689679522011-10-04T11:21:11.211-07:002011-10-04T11:21:11.211-07:00This is a common case of someone not reading the a...This is a common case of someone not reading the actual USR entry in line with reading the FAQ. Might as well have asked a FAQ question that said "Can ANY unit move 12" in the movement phase? No." and therefore said that skimmers and vehicles and the like can no longer move 12".Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-19040800018898682182011-10-04T11:20:13.604-07:002011-10-04T11:20:13.604-07:00Does it pass it on to ANY vehicle? No.
Does it p...Does it pass it on to ANY vehicle? No.<br /><br />Does it pass it on to dedicated transports? Yes.<br /><br />The FAQ answer is clarifying that you ONLY pass it on to a dedicated transport, per the explicitly written USR. For serious.<br /><br /><br />"You can use a coupon printed by us for 20% off in this store."<br />"Can you use ANY coupon that says 20% off in your store?" "No."Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-29644999230103759702011-10-04T09:04:42.153-07:002011-10-04T09:04:42.153-07:00Have we all gone blind or something? Don't fo...Have we all gone blind or something? Don't follow RAW anymore?<br /><br />Last time I checked FAQ>Rulebook when it comes to rules.<br /><br />"Q: Does a unit with the Scout special rule pass it on to any vehicle it is embarked in? (p76)<br />A: No."<br /><br />...any vehicle it is embarked on...<br />...any vehicle...<br />...ANY...<br />Dedicated transports fall under the wide umbrella of "ANY vehicle".<br /><br />How is this not clear?Sir Biscuithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16583831153212326925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-32354527667026483042011-10-01T18:49:43.681-07:002011-10-01T18:49:43.681-07:00Anon - you don't measure turns, so let's g...Anon - you don't measure turns, so let's get that part of your post cleared up.<br /><br />Pivoting alone is not considered movement - so it's clear enough that pivoting (alone) is certainly free.<br /><br />Beyond that, trying to refute someone's argument where they quote the rules without doing so yourself is laughable.TheKing Elessarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04981821487098781957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-43559618888330860432011-09-29T11:51:58.593-07:002011-09-29T11:51:58.593-07:00Pivot then movement is illegal. Only people who d...Pivot then movement is illegal. Only people who don't actually read the rules, and follow the paraphrased quotes of others believe that it is legal. If that sounds harsh - so be it.<br /><br />If you want to really look at it - read the vehicle movement rules (again) and try to find where it says "Pivots are free." I'll give you a hint - it never says that.<br /><br />What it says is that pivoting doesn't reduce your movement. It also states that if you "only pivot" and "pivot alone" then it doesn't count as moving once you get to the shooting phase. In other words - it is still movement. And vehicle movement is measured from the hull.<br /><br />If you really want to attempt to defend that it is legal - defend this:<br /><br />If your deployment is 12", and your maximum movement is 12" - how can you be further than 24" deep on the table after your "legal" movement?<br /><br />Because the "extra movement" that you are "gaining" by pivoting will put you beyond that point, especially for odd shaped tanks like Land Raiders and especially Dark Eldar Raiders and Ravagers.<br /><br />Really, if you want to take a closer look at vehicle movement re-read it from start to finish. Then ask yourself, why am I measuring 2" forward, then turning, then 2", then turning, etc, etc? Where in the rules does it say to do that?<br /><br />Personally, after having a few lengthy discussions (re: arguments) about this pivoting thing, and re-reading the rules a few times myself - I've come to the following understanding of how to move vehicles.<br /><br />1) Before touching vehicle at all, measure from any point on the hull outwards the distance that you want to move the vehicle.<br /><br />2) Pick up the vehilce and place the vehicle down, with whatever facing you want, with the entire hull within that distance.<br /><br />That's it. Simple, isn't it? And while GW was attempting to simplify things with these rules... do you really think they'd make vehicle movement more complex/harder? Or do you think they'd simplify it too?<br /><br />Why measure each and every turn/movement/etc? That's not what the rules say.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-20995078360436057152011-09-29T07:23:54.148-07:002011-09-29T07:23:54.148-07:00Gerbil: From the GW main rulebook FAQ:
Q: Do the ...Gerbil: From the GW main rulebook FAQ:<br /><br />Q: Do the effects of the same psychic power cast<br />multiple times on the same unit stack? (p50)<br />A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise.Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-17109069243027047132011-09-29T07:20:55.227-07:002011-09-29T07:20:55.227-07:00MVB thanks for putting this together The diagrams ...MVB thanks for putting this together The diagrams help a lot. I am 99%V I'll have to take Coteaz as a HQ for my new list and I am still on the fence between Libby and the GM. This is another good case for the GM...<br /><br />Pivoting should be well accepted by now, because that's what the rules tell you to do.<br /><br />I'm still not convinced about hammerhand stacking, can you please point out a definitive reference that settles the issue? (And not the NOVA FAQ, lol)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-86700658262846087112011-09-29T07:08:28.932-07:002011-09-29T07:08:28.932-07:00Just so onlookers have the quotes in front of them...Just so onlookers have the quotes in front of them of relevance, here they are:<br /><br />Under the Scouts USR on page 76 of the BRB:<br /><br />"If a unit with with this ability is deployed inside a dedicated transport vehicle, it confers the scout ability to the transport too."<br /><br />and the GW 40k rulebook FAQ page 6:<br /><br />Q: Does a unit with the Scout special rule pass it on to<br />any vehicle it is embarked in? (p76)<br />A: No.Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-89971815143119879842011-09-29T05:36:32.848-07:002011-09-29T05:36:32.848-07:00Thanks for the response Mike! Icareane hit the nai...Thanks for the response Mike! Icareane hit the nail on the head with where I was going though, the wording is somewhat confusing to be honest. If they had worded it something like "The unit will pass the scout ability onto any dedicated transport" then it would be a lot clearer, it's a little vague and contradicting with how it's worded.<br /><br />Thanks again for all the effort you do on your blog! :)James not Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09650080298399736379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-39181372745263094832011-09-29T03:23:15.781-07:002011-09-29T03:23:15.781-07:00And, I know it was more of a rules question, but I...And, I know it was more of a rules question, but I was feeling Vassal creative, thus ... post!Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-55049400787442805282011-09-29T03:22:45.985-07:002011-09-29T03:22:45.985-07:00That clarifies that a unit with Scout cannot pass ...That clarifies that a unit with Scout cannot pass it onto a Land Raider, etc., but the Scout USR specifically states that they pass it on to a DEDICATED transport.<br /><br />So, do they pass it on to ANY transport? No.<br />Do they specifically pass it on to dedicated? Yes.Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-26873442486707026662011-09-28T23:42:21.723-07:002011-09-28T23:42:21.723-07:00I think James not Jim was referring to this questi...I think James not Jim was referring to this question of the main rulebook FAQ:<br /><br />Q: Does a unit with the Scout special rule pass it on to any vehicle it is embarked in? (p76)<br />A: No.Icareanenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-30342218923919689442011-09-28T13:30:03.638-07:002011-09-28T13:30:03.638-07:00Mike, I completely spaced. I see what you mean ab...Mike, I completely spaced. I see what you mean about the disembark to get the extra 2" in your first turn then the 6" / 6". For some reason I read the above as deploying the extra 2" during the scout move.Brian Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06761475585889389501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-83048772692088058752011-09-28T12:02:30.306-07:002011-09-28T12:02:30.306-07:00I need an edit function on my own comments - the p...I need an edit function on my own comments - the pivot also helps you get a tad further if your opponent ISN'T deployed right along the line.Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-40881940013030619882011-09-28T12:01:58.161-07:002011-09-28T12:01:58.161-07:00It's a first turn only thing for the pivot - t...It's a first turn only thing for the pivot - thereafter, it cannot get you any "Extra" movement by the numbers. I can understand not liking it, and don't have an issue with people that prefer not to play that way. To each their own, IMO, as long as no one is breaking the rules or browbeating someone for playing within them in a way they don't like (far different from simply politely preferring to not play a certain way).<br /><br />The disembarkation move is what gets you the first turn charge, BC - you disembark 2" to the back of your base, giving you the 6" move, 6" assault, and 2" of "Extra" room ... just enough to charge people if your opponent is too far forward. You're right about the 12" "bubble" that you can't scout to within.Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-23466608617739731992011-09-28T11:50:03.781-07:002011-09-28T11:50:03.781-07:00Doesn't the scout move clearly state you need ...Doesn't the scout move clearly state you need to be outside of 12" from your opponent? Unless you have fleet, there is no way to get a first turn charge from terminators. <br /><br />Also, the pivot to get extra movement is pretty lame. Never advocated that. I'm glad many local tournament FAQ's prohibit moving any part of the vehicle longer then it's max movement.Brian Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06761475585889389501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-85798540730733716752011-09-28T09:06:17.495-07:002011-09-28T09:06:17.495-07:00I do like using scouting purifiers... lets you pus...I do like using scouting purifiers... lets you push into enemy lines mighty fast! I usually take Mordrak as my GKGM and some of his ghost buddies as well. This lets you put some additional pressure in your enemies rear lines and can support the turn 1 purifier push. Granted you lose the grenades - and frankly Mike I hadn't considered trying to slingshot an IC into the combat. That is just nasty if you can pull it off!Morgrim Darkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09231119283709857424noreply@blogger.com