tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post4098030628720220904..comments2024-03-17T01:39:05.808-07:00Comments on Whiskey & 40k: SWISS IS FOR CHOCOLATE! Seeding and Pairing in a Tournament SettingMike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-15625647158050293832011-01-19T06:36:54.897-08:002011-01-19T06:36:54.897-08:00The Swiss style system you're describing (rank...The Swiss style system you're describing (rank players each round after the first, 1-2 in every round, duplicates prohibited) is only one variation of the Swiss style system. I believe it's the one used most often because it's the easiest to implement. The one most often used in chess tournaments is to pair of the top half winners against the bottom half winners. For example, 8 winners would lead to a pairing of #1-#5, #2-#6, #3-#7, #4-#8. I believe this is called Standard Swiss.<br /><br />Elimination pairing can lead to a (not too) pathological case where the best player in the tournament gets paired with the next n best players in an n round prelim tournament. In round one he plays the second best player, and unsurprisingly, ekes out a victory. Then he gets paired against #3, because #3 smashed his first round opponent. Repeat as necessary, all due to an unfortunate first round pairing. Standard Swiss makes this much less likely. It's still possible, but even more pathological because for best to be paired against third best in round 2, third best would have had to win but been average points among the remaining winners. The same holds true for following rounds.<br /><br />The much more common case is that a winner who ekes out a victory will be paired with someone with a much better record, which seems to satisfy the reasons for Elimination Pairing in the first place. Additionally, Standard Swiss can hold all the way through final rounds as #1 vs #2 is still the most likely outcome for the final round pairing.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06707960709566540519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-82332436271892935092010-09-02T10:40:48.140-07:002010-09-02T10:40:48.140-07:00Good stuff Mike and it makes logical sense. Remind...Good stuff Mike and it makes logical sense. Reminds me of the ice hockey tournaments in High School I used to play in. They ALWAYS used elimination and it always made sense.<br /><br />Plus, nothing is better than being that #4 team going into the finals and pulling out that big Cinderella win against the #1 team (and then go on to win the tournament). Elimination is truly the fairest and most accurate way to find the "best". Yeah the #4 player/team is "the worst" out of the Final 4, but he/they is probably as good, if not better than the other 3 teams there, so the only way to get the best representation of this is to finalize it through Elim.<br /><br />Granted I understand in your tourney the final rounds are Swiss Pairings, but I think they'd work as well as Elim.Roland Durendalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08389723800776089633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-961566051816608692010-06-08T05:25:58.181-07:002010-06-08T05:25:58.181-07:00Ultrabob - sorry I didn't catch this sooner.
...Ultrabob - sorry I didn't catch this sooner.<br /><br />With regard to Overall, that's not tied to an undefeated status.<br /><br />That's to say, that winning all your games is required on the first day to win a Top General prize ... as is winning all your games to win the Tourney Champion (our equiv of "Best General) prize and 2nd Vegas ticket (2nd day activity).<br /><br />BUT the Overall, coined Renaissance Man in our system, is only 33% your record/competitive score, then 33% sports and 33% appearance ... so if you're a real nice sport and have a good looking army, you're going to be in the running for it as long as you win about half your games or more.<br /><br />As for leaving ... we're adopting the Adepticon stance - leave our event early for reasons such as "I lost, boo" and you're disinvited on a perpetual basis. Sounds harsh at first, but makes sense.<br /><br />It does affect the pairings if people leave, but the "loss" brackets are a little easier to pair out than the win brackets, and presumably people won't depart if they're undefeated.<br /><br />More importantly, the more you've lost, the higher your odds of winning random swag (your name goes in the raffle box once for every loss).<br /><br />Hope that helps, and that you get it!<br /> - MikeMike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-50549164986218305432010-05-21T09:48:03.465-07:002010-05-21T09:48:03.465-07:00Maybe you could clarify some questions for me. Fir...Maybe you could clarify some questions for me. First I wanna say this sounds fantastic, i am now a huge fan of this pairing style. But how would the rest of the tournament play out? If this elimination then is it like a bracket and do losers then go into a loser bracket? I may not be reading it right, it may already have been answered. <br /><br />Also, if its elimination then someone who gets a loss or even a draw is out of the running for overall? I agree that this will truly prove the best player but you may have some people leave knowing they are out of the running. This would affect the pairings as well.UltraBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776229271601869925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-32475584651946352732010-04-08T05:40:05.216-07:002010-04-08T05:40:05.216-07:00I will allow that, if you actually make it, DI.I will allow that, if you actually make it, DI.Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-37051447400326961902010-04-07T20:03:11.460-07:002010-04-07T20:03:11.460-07:00If this tournament format were a woman, I would ha...If this tournament format were a woman, I would have sex with it.Danny Internetshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01542445877929479447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-86290222089808346962010-04-07T18:26:32.077-07:002010-04-07T18:26:32.077-07:00PWNED! <3PWNED! <3TheKing Elessarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04981821487098781957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-2960088707473897352010-04-07T11:19:15.629-07:002010-04-07T11:19:15.629-07:00There will be chairs.
Newb.There will be chairs.<br /><br />Newb.Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-37891010502906342612010-04-07T11:18:35.315-07:002010-04-07T11:18:35.315-07:00Ok, thanks for that explanation, now it all makes ...Ok, thanks for that explanation, now it all makes a lot more sense.<br /><br />I'll most likely be there, but it'll depend on how my knee heals up.Chumbalayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15543857960730597490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-25547862883136596522010-04-07T10:56:26.214-07:002010-04-07T10:56:26.214-07:00Yeah, you understood that correctly. There's ...Yeah, you understood that correctly. There's not a good reason, necessarily ... half of the point was to get the average swiss-lover to "break the mold" by pointing out that flaw. /touches nose lightlyMike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818846784767602047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-90840267040648909912010-04-07T10:20:48.040-07:002010-04-07T10:20:48.040-07:00Ok, my head is spinning a bit trying to poke a hol...Ok, my head is spinning a bit trying to poke a hole in this, but after just reading it I like the system. I guess I am wondering why, if your awarding the 4 top winners, you would not stick it out with the elimination pairing instead of switching to swiss for the final round (did I understand that correctly?)Nixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08771913395327076284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-388453741033869908.post-28145625371567733892010-04-07T09:49:53.962-07:002010-04-07T09:49:53.962-07:00Elimination Pairing for the win!
I approve. It&#...Elimination Pairing for the win!<br /><br />I approve. It's a lot more work for the tourney organizer, but worth it. I HIGHLY suggest already having the algorithms programmed into an Excel sheet so that all you have to do is data entry.<br /><br />Makes me wish I could make NOVACon...Dverninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18098608506710554678noreply@blogger.com